Welcome to the Nobody Knows podcast with Callie Zamzow. Join us for conversations with local changemakers and hear the stories that don't always get told. It'll be honest, messy and beautiful. Touching and humorous. Slow down for a glass and pull up a chair. This is the Nobody Knows podcast. Welcome to Nobody Knows. I'm your host, Callie Zamzow. Jumping right into the tip of the week from Zamzows. This is a really kind of baseline tip, but we hear people come into the stores all the time, a little bit confused about it. So I thought I would just have a fun little conversation about annuals versus perennials. So I know there's a lot of different. I was looking up mnemonics and things that you can remember. The thing that I think has helped me over the years. Remember that an annual you're going to have to buy annually. So an annual is not going to live past the season. And I should clarify this by saying an annual is an annual based on where you're planting it, i.e. where in the country or where in the world you're planting it, because an annual could be a perennial in other places of the world where it stays and comes back here. I know, I know, wild, right? Jody? So this is just we're really talking about the Treasure Valley. So annuals, you'll need to buy them every year. Generally speaking, our annuals are going to be brightly colored blooms of things, things that you'll want to deadhead because they'll kind of bloom throughout the season. And they're the kind of the wow factor in our gardens. Perennials are and I think perennials I think I was trying to think of like p word. So perennials perpetual although you can kill perennials I've, I've done it myself. But perennials are plants that get that come back a year after year after year. So obviously your bushes and whatnot are perennials, but there are also perennials that die back like that where they are above the earth, they die back and then they come back the next year, come back up again, usually take a little bit of time to fill in. So you might, you know, when you very first plant them, they might be pretty small, but then and then you might fill in with annuals around them to fill in the space. And then over time, you will not need to do that because the perennial will take up the space. So with perennials, you want to make sure that you're paying attention to the little tag that says how big they get. I've made this mistake and I see it all the time. People plant perennials too close together, and then they overcrowd, and then you're ending up having to pull them out anyway, and you've wasted your money. So if you can be patient, plant your perennials as kind of your, you know, your mainstays in your garden, and then you can use annuals to do a pop of color and to help fill in until they until they grow up. So there you go. There's your little annual perennial, by the way, has both in stock right now. It's a wonderful time of year to plant both of them. And so come on into any of our 12 stores and will happily help you with that. And you can come in and say, I don't know the difference between an annual and a perennial, and we'll still help you because that's the kind of people we are. All right. This this is a fun podcast. Number one. Always enjoy podcasts where there are two people. And having a husband and wife is particularly fun. So I'm looking forward to this. And these are friends of mine. So I'm excited about this. Today we're talking with Tammy and Jan DeWeerd And so Tammy, I'm going to know this. She was served as mayor for Meridian for 16 years. And she helped guide one of the fastest growing cities in the state. So incredible time that got to be a little, little part of that, which was awesome. And Jan was the VP of AG services and strategy at Lamb Weston had a full, robust career with them as well. Together, they are now coauthors of a book called When We Could Not See the Moon, which I'm very excited about talking about, that I did read the book, and that's a that's an amazing story. And then there are also the creators of Spoken Wines, which is a storytelling platform centered around people, place and culture. So welcome to the studio, both of you. Thank you Kelly, it's great being here. Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. So before we dive into my long list of questions. Would you each like to take a moment just to just give a quick little, like who you are, and you can do it and however you like, whatever part of your life you'd like to share. Oh, my gosh, I think we I'm used to wearing many hats. So I'm fourth generation Idahon and I love Idaho, but we also love to experience the world and better understand the people and places around us. And so I'm a mom and a grandma, and because my kids married spouses with kids, I'm also a great grandma. Oh my gosh. So that's amazing world adventure. And I get to to hang out with him. Yeah, yeah. And I get to hang out with her, you know, and that's generally how I introduce myself because my identity is through the mirror. And you say, like, you know, I'm married to the mayor. I'm not the mayor. You'll always be the mayor to some of us. I'm looking to my left right now because I know she gets always a little bit irritated when I say that. Yeah. So we. I'm originally from the Netherlands, and yes, it's not Jenny or they say it in a different way, but just before we walked in here, we already said no after we tried for some time on how it's pronounced over there. We just settled a Jan. Jan is still better than Luke, right? We'll say it the way it's supposed to be said because weird. It's poetic and beautiful, I love that. Wow. Wonderful. I would love to be able to have that roll off my time. Yeah. Me too, I never have. He's always been Jan to me and anybody with an accent. And then we tried to practice it for 15 minutes and then people get really, you know, kind of desperate. And somebody said, okay, forget about it. And can I just call you Luke? What? Why? Luke. So so we we settled at Jan from the Netherlands group on the farm there, actually. So I'm really into this growing stuff. And I love the introduction about the annuals and perennials. Me too. Grew up in the potato farm. So when I get to Idaho and people, you know, when they see me, they have no questions. But as soon as I start talking, they hear a little bit of an accent and not a little bit. And it's a wonderful it's one of my favorite things. And so then they they just it doesn't matter. I have to be aware of that too, because I might be saying something very important and critical at that time. And I know they don't hear it because they just want there puzzled by where does this dude come from? You know, he sounds different. So our response is North Meridian. Yeah, that’s a great answer. we stay to ourselves. You know, we don't we don't go out much. And so and and then I say but you know, and then they ask well what brought you to Idaho? And they said, okay, you have one chance to guess and it's one word, but think about it... Idaho potatoes. And they got it right because potatoes are a little bit my red line through life. I grew up on the farm, I studied potatoes, I studied the agronomy of potatoes. I studied the signs of it, but also the business aspect. If you grow up in a farm, it's important that you know the the technical aspects. When you're a farmer, you got to know science, you got to know the technology behind it. But at the end of the day, it's about the bottom line because you want to build a sustainable business. So you also need to know the business aspect. And that's really been me through life. And then my last 14 years of my permanently employed career was with Lamb Weston, where I guided the company on their global agricultural strategy. Because you can't make French fries without buying potatoes, right? You need to grow them first. Well, I mean, really good French fries come from potatoes. Generally speaking. There's so many stories here that I want to get out. But I would like to start Tammy with you. Just the 16 years as mayor and not not a forgettable mayor, a mayor that did a lot. You did a lot for the City of Meridian during your time there really, really made an impact. Can you can you tell us a little bit about that period of time in your life? It was defining not just for the community, but for me too, and probably for family as well. But, you know, as I look at Meridian and you mentioned, you know, the the tremendous growth, it wasn't growth for growth sake, it was really trying to build a community that was a safe place that were that was a place where families thrived and a place. And my ultimate goal was a place that people love to call home. Yeah, you there were a lot of changes, and I don't say that in a in a bad way. I think sometimes we get afraid of change, but there were a lot of changes under your tenure. And I'm curious how you how you navigated that during that period of time, because that that would be very difficult. A lot of you're juggling a lot. I love change, and so change for me was about growth personally and how we could stretch ourselves. So it it changed. But what I always appreciated is it changed for good, you know, where you depended on other communities to really go and and get your services and your job and your recreation? We developed into a community that was self-sufficient. It was full service, so you could get your shopping and you could play in our beautiful parks with your family, and you could have these family experiences all within a manageable distance. And all of them are idiot. And that's what I loved about it. We would talk about projects and then we would see them develop, and today I can see how they have filled in. And it's really rewarding to know that you were a part of developing something really special. Yeah, I, I feel like I with, with the help of other people who were on the Meridian Development Corp., the Urban Renewal District board at the time, who welcomed me in and asked me to be a part of all that. I was so green to all of that. And so I just want to take a quick moment to thank you personally for being a female leader that helped shape the kind of leader that I am today. And the number one thing that I loved about you was how authentic you always led. And you, you would bravely speak up about things. And sometimes I'd be like, oh, mayor, in some. And and it would make me a little. My palms would get a little sweaty. But I love the fact that you it was always you. You were not. You didn't ever put on a front. It wasn't like when when things got difficult, you were a different person than on the days when we were all laughing and it was easier. And I watched that very carefully as a young leader, just saying, oh, so she she gets to be exactly who she is and people respect her and she's thoughtful and she's doing things. And it gave me the courage to kind of figure out how to do that myself. So thank you, Callie. That's very kind of you. I, I think it was really important to be always who you were then. You didn't have to. I my memory sometimes sucks. And then you don't have to remember who you thought you were projecting yourself as. I just was who I was. And I was kept grounded by my family and and close friends because I wanted to get up in the morning and look in the mirror and and not wonder who I was seeing today. So, yeah, I was who I was, and authenticity was important to me and that I didn't pull surprises. I didn't like surprises, and I didn't want to surprise others on wondering what I was thinking. So I'll just tell them, yeah, I always appreciated that. He also need to be, you know, comfortable with who you are, right? Yes. And, you know, and you need to love who you are with everything that comes with it. It's very important and that and if you are comfortable with yourself, you can be vulnerable. Yes. Yes, exactly. And it is okay that you don't know everything. And it is also okay when you make a mistake or you screw up on something, you recognize that everybody does it and and then you go on from that because nobody's infallible. And once you get comfortable with that, you can be yourself. Yeah. And that was that was important to show that vulnerability, be authentic and courageous. And I've always recognized that in you as well, that, it's it's important to be who you are and stay true to your principles and values and, and know that you are not perfect. And and maybe that was one of the biggest lessons I learned is as people would come to you, because usually it was a last, last point of hope to some people, and they just wanted to be respected. They wanted to be heard. And although I couldn't always give them the answer that they wanted, I hope that they left knowing that I heard them. I understood and knowing why I couldn't give them the answer they wanted. Yeah, it's great leadership, really beautiful. And so 16 years, I think we all thought Tammy's just going to be there forever. And I think the kind of hopes that was the case, although we have great leadership now as well. I, I'm curious about how the how that transition went when you decided that you were going to step down and into something else. How what happened there like and how did that. How did that feel? Well, I never really thought I would be mayor for 16 years, but there was always that project that you wanted to finish. There was always that next thing that you were really excited about, and there was always a hope that you could turn the baton over to a ton over to someone that that would take it and have the same priorities on our families and our on our youth and on connectivity and all of those things that we felt. And this wasn't me. This was me working with our community to develop Meridian to what it was. And I was getting ready to run again. And then my dad died. I don't know why I just got so emotional. Maybe it just brought me back, but my my dad died and I realized that I was giving up a lot of my time with family, and I had just more limited time with my mom. And I wanted to reconnect with my kids and my grandkids, and it was time to make my family the priority. So when I stepped out of office, it was a clean break. It was kind of incredible because I, I love Meridian and I was very passionate about everything I did, but when I stepped out, it was so and else's turn and I left it in good hands. I had my same city, family and team that was there and and I know I knew that it would be taken care of. And now my focus was on my family, my husband, and on that next chapter. And, you know, I went to Argentina right after I five days later. And when I came back, I came back for an MDC meeting, and I drove up to City Hall, and I parked in visitor parking, and I walked up to the the building, and I did not think I had to go up to the third floor. I went to the meeting and then I went home. And it was it was pretty incredible because I was a little bit nervous how I would feel, and it was like liberating. I love hearing that because you deserve it. You deserve it for the work that you put in to be able to now start a totally different chapter, several chapters, and and you just seem to be thriving, still totally thriving, which is also, it's also inspiring. A lot of people ask what I miss, and really, I, I missed my city family. The employees were really important to me. And, you know, we all grew up together and I miss the the community that I got to work with. Did I ever tell you how we first met? No, I don't think so. You were preparing to be mayor and you were at Toastmasters, and I happen to be one of the people at the Toast. I actually, I didn't end up staying with that particular group, so I was only there one time, and. But yes, you were. And you didn't announce it to us that that's what you're preparing for. I just then I was like, oh, that's that woman. And she's now mayor. We just Toastmasters together. Yeah. But it was like literally one, one time. So anyway, I don't even know if I introduced myself to you because I didn't. Yeah. I just remember the the situation. Now that you say that, I think I, I kind of remember that. Yeah. Kind of cool. That's cool. So so obviously you, you retire and then you opened several chapters. Can we speaking of chapters, can we talk about the book? Is that a cool next next thing to talk about? Yeah. What an incredible story. I don't even really know how to kind of sum it up in my mind how great that story is. Really emotional, but almost like, how in the heck did this actually happen? And it's a true story. So do you want to share a little bit about that? The title is when we could not see the moon, and the story behind the when we could not see the moon is we always connected with our daughter, regardless of where she was in the world. We were looking at the same moon and it was really symbolic during this time, as we knew she could not see the moon. Just kind of like we cannot see God. But you, you know, he's there. Yeah. She knew the moon was there. It was still connecting and we just equated it to that is exactly what our faith is all about, is. It's there when we need it. We cannot always see it, but we know it's there and it gives us hope. I love that connection with the moon. My my daughter and I do that as well. I guess we're feeling particularly lonesome for one another. It's, you know, looking to the sky tonight. We're both looking at the same moon. Yeah, but I love the fact. Because you're right. You can't always see the moon, so. But but it is always there. And so it's a wonderful analogy of faith for sure. Yes, it was during Covid. I mean, what what? Tammy just retired just a month before they shut everything down, and she was still really thankful for that. She could have. Darn good timing. Timing is perfect. And our daughters had at that time already left the house and they were in Europe studying. And our oldest daughter was already working at the time in London for a startup. And when Covid came, that startup business went under very quickly. And so she actually then came home. She hadn't been home really to live with us for many years because she studied in Europe and was working there. She came home because she actually got a job right here in Meridian where she could do her her marketing and e-commerce type expertise, which she has. And so as he came home, we through 2020, we we lived together as a family was one. We loved it. We we were outside. We we were so active and so connected. And she challenged us all the time. She she challenges to do things we would never thought of normally. But after a year she got restless again. And in the meantime, she also had further fine tuned and sharpened her skills in e-commerce. And she started her own business that she could basically help other businesses to help you know how to interact, how to make your website more effective and improve conversion. That's our expertise. And so she at that time basically said, you know what? I can do this anywhere in the world as long as I have a powerful MacBook and good Wi-Fi connection, I can do it anywhere. And so she decided to become this, what referred to Digital Nomad and the first place where she really wanted to go. She had been there before because she had when she was in London at one time, a boyfriend who originally was from Egypt, and he had taken her back there, and she kind of fell in love with the culture of that country, but especially with the Red sea. She's an avid scuba diver, and so she really wanted to go there. There was kind of a center of people from all around the world see these, these, these digital nomads, they live in these in these communities where all these people live. And so you can lean on each other. And that's where she wanted to go. And the way we communicate is through WhatsApp, you know, that's that that that tech service that you can use anywhere in the world. And so with all of her travel also that she already did before that and all that, we always stay in touch. And you know, when she takes off, when she lands. And so he are very excited. She was in in Amsterdam because before she started her journey, she went back to, to some of her friends in the Netherlands before she was taken off. And she said, oh, I'm so excited. My journey is starting. And then radio silence. We all see we're supposed to text back in 12 hours that she landed safely. Because you can imagine we were a little bit nervous of her going to a developing country, Muslim country, as a Western blond haired girl by herself. Yeah, I have a daughter who's in New York City, and that freaks me out. I can't even imagine what you guys were dealing with there. But she's a strong woman. She she she knows the world, you know, and we, of course, tried to coach and support as good as we can. And that's all you can do. So our story really started in crisis, you know, when our daughter was unjustly detained in Egypt. And it really threw us into a nightmare that we never really imagined. But you know, what that terror became is hope. And it it really broadened into really tapping into our faith and pausing and listening and and acting on what, what we were, what we were told and then leaning into our community as well. And, you know, so what turns into a story that is a parent's worst nightmare actually became one that that we felt we had to share this story that could give other people hope in time of darkness and, and maybe strength to know that, yes, you have to lean into your faith, but you also have to really pause and be humble enough to ask for help, because as I learned, whether it was as mayor or during our own personal crisis is when you ask people, people want to help. They just don't know when they need to be helping and what kind of help they need you need. But it was a whole different journey than that original stop in your tracks. What are we going to do? Type of perilous or paralyzing? Yeah, but, turned into something that really became different than we could have imagined. Yeah. It is. I mean, we we were people of faith, but it was very private to us, you know, and we were so we were familiar with it. And when we went through this like this, this unknown for days we hadn't heard at all. And we didn't know. We didn't even know if she was still alive. Yeah. And then finally things started to come. But it was a very scary, risky or, you know, unknown thing that as parents, you can only imagine how you how you get around that. But tapping into this faith and faith became real. It wasn't an abstract thinking. It became so real. And it stopped us from sliding. It stopped us from sinking into this sinkhole. And indeed, it gave us hope. And there's a moment in the book that I experienced. It was so real that God was talking to me, and not that I heard some thunderous voice I described in the book how that went, and I experienced it. I've heard so many times people talking about stuff like that, and when they kind of go that way, I tend to kind of like roll my eyes and okay, there somebody goes again, totally emotionally out of sync. And then it happened to me, and it was so real that when this happened, when we were in the middle of it, I said, Tammy, no matter what will happen, we we will. We owe it to God. We need to write about this. We need to share this with people, because there is something so powerful here that other people need to hear about. They need to hear about their experience that go through their own crisis like this and that there is something that is beyond our 3 or 4 dimensions that we can understand. There's something bigger there that you can tap into, and that gives you strength and hope. And we need to share our experience. It's a real story. It's a it was super real. And that cost that was the reason we wrote the book. I mean, we were connected with people that we didn't know. I mean, people came up in extraordinary ways and, you know, that's that that just gives you hope and it gives you light and it gives you the strength that you need to to do the things. Because if you have this whole, yeah, your mind is clear and fresh. And we came up with solutions, we heard we everything that opened up, you know, we, we took and we saw to act upon write in full amount and that we were able to do that. And then how God did his work through other people. That's how he how he did his miracle doors were opened up that he kind of wonder, how did that ever happened? And then the things well, you read the book, what happened in that jail in that dungeon where she was held, you know, with no daylight, no nothing, no idea what the day of at the time of the day it was. But what happened in that even was also miraculous, in a way. And we were able to write about that because our daughter kept a diary just to keep her own sanity, whatever scrap of paper she could find, she wrote on. And so that that part of the of the book was filled in by her. And then, you know, otherwise how the book was written was basically chapter by chapter. We we write by day by day. Because that's how you got through the day from Tammy's perspective, from my perspective. And then what happened on the other side of the world from her perspective, what happened at that day? It's extraordinary. It is a wonderful read on so many levels. It's just straight up a good read. Like if you're just like a good book, it's a great book because the storyline is just. And the fact that it's true is just sometimes unfathomable. But but it's also I love the way that you have woven in your faith with all of it. the moment I remember the part in the book where you had the moment and as a reader, I'm like, everything's going to be okay. And at that point in the book, you don't know everything's going to be okay. But I knew it because of because of that moment. And so, yeah, it is it's it's well worth reading, if nothing else. If you're somebody who is less worldly than you two, I would be one of them. I wouldn't I can't even imagine the circumstances. And I just don't know enough about the world in general to understand this. That book absolutely helps paint a picture of understanding how very different other cultures are, and certainly other prisons are well, and how much we take for granted here. Yes, 100%. But also though that people are people, right? Yeah. I mean that. Yeah, they look different. They sound different, they dress different. They maybe even smell different. But if you peel all those layers away, you see the same beautiful human being behind that. And that is what we also experienced. And you know what? Guess what, people doesn't matter where in the world they want to do good. Hey, well, let's shift gears, because this isn't all of you to have done since you I was going to say graduated. I guess there was a little bit of graduation when you leave work and take on other things. So let's let's take on spoken wines and tell us about that. What was the what was the thought process behind that. And and what is it? Oh, boy. Book and wines was really born from our passion about wine. Jan and I both have very busy lives up until retirement, and we always used our time together to explore different wine regions. They're not only beautiful, but you meet the people behind it and and it just starts to break down barriers and walls, and it makes the world feel so small when you start meeting the people behind the craft. And as we were talking with our daughter, she said, well, you really should start a YouTube channel, Mom and dad, about this. You can't just blog that everyone does that. You need to to do your storytelling through video. So now all of a sudden, Jan and I are are retired and he's becoming a YouTube expert and I'm videoing and we don't know what we're doing, but we're stretching ourselves and and we're just having a great time and, and it's so much more meaningful when you go and you taste the life in the glass and, and you, you get to know the people and the history and the triumphs and and toils behind that. It's it's just incredible. Yeah. Again, it goes to a deeper purpose and it goes to, to our roots. Basically, as I mentioned earlier, I grew up in the farm and and, you know, and Tammy built this community here with so many other people. And we basically the purpose here is, is to to connect to the world. This happens everywhere in the world. And it's so visual. When you go to a winery, it's generally a lot of times a small family operation. They've been working the land that vineyard, sometimes for generations, and every year everything is at stake, you know, to to get that vineyard to express in the way they envision. And then when they pour the wine they made from these grapes of are growing there. And every time somebody puts that glass to their lips, they basically get a job evaluation. Can you imagine, you know, that kind of vulnerability? Yeah. Mine was a very four years. Yeah. Yours is every sip. Every time. Yeah. And there's so much richness behind that. So we tell that story by highlighting the people and then how they work with their site, you know, their location, because that is so important in terms of the type of wine they can make, how they use that to express it into their wine and then their belief system. I mean, do they are they doing it organically or some, some, some of them biodynamic or conventionally? Sustainably? What are their approaches? How how do they do the winemaking? Do they do it with high precision or is it more of a natural touch? So when people then get to wine is not only that beautiful liquid in the glass, they can now connect to the people that made the wine and the whole story behind it. And guess what? When you have that and we try to do that through our videos, so it really becomes a life that wine actually starts to taste different. Yeah, yeah. It's never just wine. It's so much more. Yeah. And so we love it. We love to tell these stories. Every story is so totally different. We just, you know, released the the the story that when we were in Argentina. And just to see how that family built this winery three generations back by just building first a community of workers around their winery, that was important. And then out of that, they grew the wine. And yeah, you can write about it, but you have to see the people telling that story and see the video of the place where they're doing it, and then it really becomes to speak well. What was really cool is I write for a couple of local magazines, and there was a distributor, a big distributor in Florida, that it was reading these, and he contacted the publisher and said, hey, I'd like to invite your writer out and see Saint Julia, and you have to go there. And we just happened to to say we were going to spend a couple months in Argentina. So let's go and check them out. And you had to be there. You had to see what Julia's a grandfather started. He his love was the vines and his wife's love was the people. And how to support the people who worked in the vineyards and getting them on and and making sure that they have childcare and, and teaching their spouses a craft or a something that they can also make additional income from. And it was so heartwarming that now it was no longer just about their incredible wine that is very approachable and affordable. But now it's about this whole ecosystem, about how it wasn't just about them, it was about their people and their community and how they can lift them all up. Yeah, it's like it's a microcosm of what the world could use some more of here right now. Absolutely. I mean, if we approached everything, the way that you approach these wineries and vineyards, the world would be a different place. Well, we kind of do hope that that was our altruistic view is we can maybe help break down barriers and take down walls and help make this world a smaller place by showing that people are the people. People are people the same wherever you are in the world, we all care about our kids in a safe community and a good education and a future for our families. And that's true. Mine is so symbolic for that too. It's just like, you know, when people break bread together, you know, when you start to drink a glass of wine, you stop actually preaching and you start asking questions about the person opposite from you. And that is the deeper purpose. Yeah. So people have been connecting around the table for centuries, and this is just a further extension of that craft that goes back 6000 years. Can you imagine? Yeah, I'm always amazed. And I think sometimes it gets ignored how alive wine is and that it's evolving literally, constantly. So that's why when people I'm not speaking of the choir here, you guys could speak to as much better than I can, but that's why certain wines wait to open them, because you want to give them a chance to do their thing. But but it's interesting that humans, you know, it's all kind of like a microcosm of everything all working together. But yeah, it's it's such a great thing. And you do this all over the world. Is there a particular place that you've gone to that sticks out in your mind that was a particular unique story or a unique location or something like that? We have so many stories I know I can only imagine. So it's so local, I mean, South Africa is stunningly beautiful and they make just incredible wines. And we had a person there standing in the vineyard, and their theme is ancient soils, because where they planted those vines is actually a soul that has never been impacted by ice or volcanic activity or river. It basically just evolved. Since the Earth was created. Millions and millions of records. Ancient. I mean, so just over time at weathers down crumbles down, you know? And so they put their vines in there. And this person, you know, he just really radiated. We interviewed him very early on and he just said, why? He said it's like life in the glass. And he said, and when I want people, when they take a sip of this wine, I want them to travel in their mind all the way through South Africa, through this vineyard where I'm standing and how we got these vines to take out of the soil with the struggle to give them the fruit that you're now drinking. You know, it's like, wow, that is he was like our favorite. Yeah. Oh my goodness. That's awesome. Yeah. Do you ever go to these and then think maybe we need to invest in this particular I know you have to that work. That would be worth. No. And you know there was a time we we didn't have spoken wines and it was probably not even a thought yet, but we went to South Africa and we had all these plans. We were going to go and put our stuff in our room, and then we were going to go find a couple of wineries and check them out. And this was an old winery that they had converted into an Airbnb. And, and so we put our stuff down and we walked out onto the deck and we looked at the view. And you saw vineyards and olive orchards and these big granite up outcroppings. And then the host came with two glasses of wine, and Jan and I just went, okay, this is good enough. We're, we're, we're, we're setting lean in and we're going to just take in this view. And that is the wine world. These vineyards are stunning. The areas that we travel to show God's beauty and I mean times 100. But it's you see you see gorgeous country. You see incredible heart wrenching. You hear heart wrenching stories, and you see how people persevere. And you, you find their why. And now this wine, it was great. And now it is unforgettable. Yep. Paint. Such a wonderful picture. Just I love it, love it, love it. We're going to take a quick moment to thank our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Zamzows. Surprise, surprise. We love Zamzows. Well thank you. Zamzows is your local source for garden, pet and planet friendly products. As a thank you to our Nobody Knows listeners, use code spoken at checkout to receive 10% off your online order. The discount applies automatically and is valid online only and excludes lawn programs. It also runs through August 31st of 2026. You can buy online and pick up and store at any of our 12 Treasure Valley locations. Please visit Zamzows.com and let's grow something good. Nobody knows like Zamzows. All right, we're going to shift gears now. This is the sharing is caring portion. Kind of more rapid fire questions. Are you ready? I'll just throw them out there. So whoever would like to answer them, answer. And if you both have an answer, then by all means just speak up. Okay, so here we go. How about a place in the Treasure Valley that feels meaningful or grounding to you? See, I would choose Kleiner Park because Kleiner Park is a $25 million donation from someone who doesn't even live in Idaho. But he wanted to honor his dad. And that just grabs your heart. And when you see all the people out there and join it and really experiencing this generous gift, it's heartwarming. I heard from somebody recently that the meandering paths was a design that that comes from Central Park. Is that true, or do you know? I don't recall that. Okay, well, it's one of my favorite things because they are these wonderful paths that. Well, then, yes, both parks are wonderful. That wine is just like that. You know, it's like if you like a wine, you like a wine, and you don't need to explain or justify it. And if you don't like, you don't like it, you know, that's fair like that. And if it somehow comes from Central Park, although I thought Central Park is a as it can be. Oh, well, the park itself, it just has the meandering. Yes. Through it. Yes. Yeah, probably it is. Yeah, yeah. I said in a recent podcast that that's where my husband's ashes. We've been asked to put his ashes. He's still alive. I just met him in the wake of the day. He was very much alive. Like I said in the last one, I'm hoping that Rafi is the one who has to do that and not me. Okay, let's move on to another question. How about a book, a podcast, or a story that has stayed with you recently? I write for two magazines, and I just had interviewed Mini Mayor at Cherry Hill Winery. She lost her family in a plane accident, and she was the she was the only family member that survived. And she found her healing here in Idaho with raising Carey Hill sheep and her her dogs and her winery that she started as she started to heal. And that really stays with me. And her grit, her perseverance, her vision in honoring her, her granddaughter that she just released a wine to to honor her. But you know, her family, when you go through that kind of tremendous loss, it just kind of stays with you. Okay? He came here to Idaho to train her Australian shepherd in sheep herding. And there's a very well-known coach here, I guess, and Idaho remember who he was. And she kind of got stuck here and started a winery. And that's a whole other story that you just have to we have we wrote on our website, we blog as well. So there's a nice blog about her, and we're going to release her story on video here in a couple of months. Were you just really I think this is a good moment to do this. You tell us what the website, how to get to your website. Yeah, it's WW spoken wines. Com so spoken wines plural. Com wonderful. And on YouTube it's the same name spoken wines. Yeah. My blog and all my store, all my articles that I write that are wine related are also listed on there too. Nice. And then also a little bit off to the side. But as far as if people want to get their hands on your book, because now I know they want to read it. How would they do that? Yeah, it's available on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. The easiest is actually to just go to our website, which is it's a mouthful when we could not see the moon. Com if you go there, there's an how to order button and that can that gets you directly to Amazon or any of these other channels. And you can order it right there. But really, whatever book store is your favorite, you can request it if they don't already have it. It's our project to give back and everything. All the proceeds are destined to be going to a nonprofit, and the nonprofit would be one that would help women that find themselves in situations like our daughter did. And actually, we had someone that went to our website, sent us a message and said, I would love to order a book, but I'd like it signed. And so we just sent her one. Oh that's cool. Yeah, and we would love to go to books or book clubs and talk to book clubs. We would join them physically if they're here or virtually virtually, if they had done that a few times where they grabbed our book and they made it their theme, and then we zoomed in and we had a really, you know, interesting, heartwarming, meaningful discussion with the club. Nice. I have a couple of book clubs. Let me you might be hearing from me. Well, good. We hope so. Awesome. That would be. And I also wrote a couple of guides that could guide conversations and also kind of some takeaways. If you have kids that travel and and if you travel. So I don't care about me. My kid is traveling and I'm like, oh yeah, if this is that you talk about the faith thing, right? People ask me, how are you doing, mama and I this time last year, if you'd have told me that I was going to be doing this well, I would have said, there's no way we're so close. And she's going to be going so far away. And it's been an amazing year of realizing that everything's okay. Yeah, well, you spent all that time preparing them for that time, and then you launch them and you see how they just gain wings and and they start to navigate and it's awesome. That's when you really think, okay, I can trust this. Yeah, yeah. Being a parent is greatest thing. And faith is all about surrender to. Absolutely. That's what you do with your daughter. Exactly, exactly. I just like I sort of sometimes literally when I'm feeling particularly, I'm like, open your hand, let it let it go. It's in somebody else's hands and much better hands. So just let it be. Exactly. Okay. How about something outside of work that's been bringing you joy lately? Work being, you know, obviously spoken wines and everything. Okay, now I get to do this one because we travel a lot and usually we travel in the spring. And this year I'm home and I get to see all my flowers and bloom and my yard come to life. And now we have to put our thrive down. I wanted to say save a tree, but it's right. That's all I'm saying. I know, I mean, I love spring and I, we love our yard and I love seeing everything. Our forsythia bloom for a month and my my tulips were so gorgeous until this pounding rain and stuff like that. I mean, just seeing seeing our, our yard come to life and all the things that all the perennials that we lovingly planted in this horrible soil. Yes, they have to amend. But anyway, you know what I like about your backyard? What your yard in general is that you share it. I've had many times that you have had various events that you have brought people into your you're not afraid of sharing your space, and you've done that quite a few times and just your wonderful hosts. Really. Thank you. Yeah, we love to share. Yeah. Yes you do I can tell it's great. It's great to be a recipient. Okay, so now it is time as we ask this of all of our guests the same question, I'm going to ask it to both of you. I'd love to have. Maybe you have a joint answer, or if you each have your own answer, I would love that as well. So here's the question what is something that nobody knows? And there are no rules. Okay. Well I'll bring it then back to all these adventures and our lives that you heard about but we haven't talked about are written about, is that during one of our wine ventures in South Africa, we were actually held at gunpoint. What? Yeah. Holy cow. Yeah. And so what what happened there was there was a huge taxi strike going on, and they had blocked and burdened busses on the freeway. And then and this is maybe a good message again, two good old Google Maps right then anticipates all this and guide you off the freeway to go, you know, get around it. And in this case it guided us right into probably one of the most dangerous townships. Oh my gosh. And as soon as I got off the the the off ramp I knew it. It's like we, we we shouldn't be here. And immediately we look at a way to how to get back on and but it couldn't have us traffic all jammed up and people walking because they all had to know. Walk home because the taxis weren't driving DRC. And there the whole society, the working people there depend on these taxi busses. That's how they go from work, from the townships to work in the city and back. And so everybody was on foot. It was chaotic. And so we finally got a little bit further and it was an intersection. And I told Tammy, okay, pass that intersection and just flip it you and get back up in the air. And there was this one car was just right in front of us, and that car started the back up and I was like, what is this guy going to do, you know? And so I started to look back already. I couldn't back up because it cars behind me. And then he kept backing up and then I started honking till he actually totally touched my car. He wanted to lock me in. And as soon as that happened, four guys came out on two on both sides and one was on Tammy side holding a gun right, right on our head showing, hey, lower the window. And so I was thinking, do I look like a fool? I am not rolling down my window. So what? And it's like, hey, the car right now is my protectant in a way. You know, I was thinking, I and I cannot, you know, I need to get out of here because I'm not going to wait and see what he wants. I already knew, and so I, I was ready to back up. Fortunately, the car behind me had seen what happened. He gave me space and I backed up. Just keep the car moving because that would throw the guy off. But everything by by the way, this was a little bit like in slow motion when when you get in a lot of stress. But everything was super clear. But when I backed up and you drive, you drive on the right, on the left side of the road, your steering wheels on the right side in in South Africa, it's just like in English system. And while I backed up my elbow, hit the window button. Oh, no. And you know when that the vendor doesn't go open a little bit, right. No. All the way down. So all of a sudden I had this other guy here leaning into my car, wanting to take the keys, wanted to disable the car. Right. Fortunately, we had a keyless car. It was just a start button. Me. Mickey was in my pocket and so he was leaning in and so I had to get that guy out of there. It's like A007 thing. Yeah. So but everything was was very clear. I saw his face and I saw he, he had had some fear on me too. So. And I just kept pounding on his face to get him out of there. And finally he did because I really I felt like, oh, no, I hit his nose. I could feel like, okay. So he had to her back. And so that allowed me then to go back on my, my gear to go forward again and get out of there. And in the meantime, see, because it was all kind of emotion, that person, you know, was still kind of with his gun standing there on Tammy. And but then we got out of there, so we had to step away. And then there was this bang, you know, and now he's shooting the there was no glass shattering or anything. It was. But what this was a week before our daughter gave birth and I again, I, I have a few moments in my life. It is divine intervention, this this divine experience. It felt like that because we didn't panic. We had to get this guy out of the window. Everything was super clear. The details. I still vividly see it, and it felt a little bit like we were in a cocoon in a protected bubble again. Like, everything will be okay, you know, we just get you out of here and yeah, then you can of course interpret it in any way you want, but we interpret it. And later it had proven to be the case. We had to be there for her daughter when she gave birth. There was all kinds of stress, things happening after that and that we were there. It was meant to be. And by the way, that baby boy that she gave birth to was a gift from God. We knew that ahead of time already, and she will readily everybody recognize is such and every birth is. But in this instance, it was such a beautiful, perfect gift that she needed at that time in her life. We had to be there to get through all of that, and it was not our time. We knew it wasn't our time because we did read an article a couple days later that there were five deaths associated with this strike, and one of them was a surgeon that from England, that whose GPS also sent him off into the same township, same intersection 40 minutes after we were there, and he was shot in the head in front of his, his wife and his two year old son. So, you know, it is more than a coincidence. And we do feel that it was that we were in this protection and it just wasn't our time. Is that the longest answer you've had? I don't know about longest, but this is the sweaty. My palms have been maybe ever. Yeah. What a story. Okay, that's that's a fantastic. Nobody knows. That's. Thank you. Thank you for that. I'm. Yeah I'm going to that will be sitting with them for a while. You have to have your heart open, your eyes open. And you see miraculous things happen around you. And a lot of things all happen by other people who want to do good. You know, who had the guy who backed up? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. The guy actually, that developed this incredible formula that we put on our Douglas fir that was about to die, and we poured it and we did it for three years. And you should see the tree right now. That's thrive everybody. And it's thriving now. You guys are the best. Thank you for being on the show with me. Thank you for sharing these wonderful stories with our community. And thank you for everything that you're doing. Just you're making the world a better place. And I just love this chapter. It's fun to follow you and it's fun to be a part of it. So we all play a role, right? Yes, this is true. This is true for having us. Yeah, absolutely. I look forward to following you and seeing what it's you know, what's coming up next. Thank you for inviting us. And it was just a pleasure. Yeah, you're very welcome. You're very welcome. All right. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please follow the podcast and leave a review. Next week we'll hear from another incredible voice shaping the Treasure Valley. And until then, thanks for listening.