Welcome to the Nobody Knows podcast with Callie Zamzow. Join us for conversations with local changemakers and hear the stories that don't always get told. It'll be honest, messy and beautiful. Touching and humorous. Slow down for a glass and pull up a chair. This is the nobody Knows podcast. Welcome to Nobody Knows. I'm your host, Callie Zamzow. And we are really knocking on the door here of, full blown spring happening. So wonderful. I love this time of year. It's there's so much energy and excitement happening. I'm going to start off by offering up the Zamzow tip of the week, which is less of a tip and more of a, hey, come and do this with us. And that is the Boise Flower and Garden Show that is happening this weekend, March 27th through the 29th. In 2026, in case you are listening in the future. And, you know, Zamzows has a pretty big presence there. We will have a couple of different booths. We'd love to have you come by and, I think there's going to be a lot of show specials, really great priced items that you can only get at the show, which will be fun. And then our own Chris Owings, the director of sales for Zamzows he's been with the company for over 20 years. And is a tomato guru. He will be doing a tomato class that you do not want to miss.

30 a.m. on Saturday, the 28th. So we hope that you will come and join. I will probably be there. So come by and say hi. Tell me about your favorite episode you've been listening to and all that fun stuff. And just in general, you know, congratulations to all of us that we have made it this point in the springtime. And that and joy is about to ensue with the weather and all that jazz. I also want to mention that the art show that I talked about last week on the show is still going on at the rotunda at. So if you just go to the Capitol building, you can follow the signs and it's the Idaho Watercolor Society show, and I do have a picture in there and wall painting, like, don't get your, don't get too excited, get a little taste of my lack of art skills. Anyhow. So it's at the, rotunda, and it's through March 28th. So that's also taking place right now. So speaking of arts, I was thinking about this, wonderful time in my life, and it was a little less than ten years ago when I was working a lot with the city of Meridian. And for those of you who been into downtown Meridian, the feed mill that sort of sits right in front of City Hall that is owned by the Sam's old family, and it's still a functioning feed mill. We actually produce a lot of different products there, and we, we ship them across the nation or people who pay more to ship our products across the nation than the actual cost of the products. Anyway, that's a totally separate story. But this this particular situation was that we, the city of Meridian came to us and said, you have this mill with this big wide open side, and we would love to have some public art there. And I don't know how I got sort of assigned as the key person of the family, but I, I, I'm very grateful that I, I was able to do that because I got to meet our two guests that are going to be talking with us today. Long story short, is if you if you go into Meridian and you see the side of the mill, you will see this wonderful pastoral, you know, it's got it's it's like it's like a farm scene. And there's a little little man there that is supposed to look my grandfather like he's, So it's anyway, it's it's it's wonderful. Every time I go into the city of Meridian, I it makes me very excited. And the whole process was so much fun to see how it all went down. So I have the artists for that and many other things in the studio with us. So please welcome Hawk, Sahlein and Collin Pheifer. Hello. Well hello everybody. It's good to see you both. I've also you also did the recently you did the alpacas and llamas at the Western Idaho Fair. That building that. So you did that as well. Building? Yeah, we had a good time there. And that was painted live during the fair. That was a few years, 2 or 3 years ago. Something like that. Yeah. Love painting animals, love doing live painting. And, you know, it's kind of just part of the gig. People like to watch the process, too. It's incredibly cool. So if people are not aware of who you are and we'll get into this, but you do this art with spray paint. So it's like it's like graffiti art, but it's so like fine tuned and beautiful and accurate. And I mean, you, you're just such cool artists. I, I love the work that you do. Appreciate that. Yeah. I mean, spray paint is just, kind of the medium that we fell into when we were first starting out as artists. So it's natural to us. And I think that is a key thing that draws people in a lot of times to they see the end result. But then to see that as part of the process makes it more intriguing. Yeah, it's really cool. So I'm going to read like some of the some of the things that you have done here. You can add in if you'd like. So Inspiration Alley, 18th Street, Focus Basin I don't know about this one. I'm after the first focus basin. It's, it's actually pretty hard to miss. It hasn't been up there. I think that's probably why. Yeah, it's the maintenance building right behind, Lower Lodge. And it's it's a pretty giant, piece of real estate. As you come around that last bend into the resort, it's right there, smack dab in the middle of things, and it's really bright. It's one of our. It's one of my favorite pieces we've done recently. So nice area. Definitely to check that out. Road skate park. And then the new newly done you did just did this recently at the Foothills School of Arts and Sciences. And then of course, one of my very favorites, because it's in my neighborhood, is the Luciano's like mob scene, which is just like my favorite. It's so cool. And so many more. So many more. Like every time I turn a corner, I'm like, oh. And then I'm always looking for the sector 17. Yeah. And at all of them have been signed over the years. Sometimes purposely, sometimes not. You know, but yeah, there's, there's probably hundreds. Yeah. It's so cool. Okay. So before we get going, we just take a moment each of you and just kind of quickly tell us about who you are and what you what you do. Yeah. My name's, Collin Phifer. I've been a full time artist for almost 14 years now. Been working with Hawk for probably over 20 years. We started out skateboarding and actually hanging out at Road Skate Park quite a bit. That's where I first met him, way back in high school. But, yeah, we just kind of shared a lot of similar interests and had friends that all had similar interests. And, I don't know, it just kind of organically built this, this thing. I don't know, it's still growing, but it's it's fun to be a part of and fun to work with one of your best friends making cool stuff. So yeah, yeah, I'm Hawk's airline and the other half is sector 17, Boise native. And, trying to keep this thing going. Yeah. I'm so glad you're keeping it going because it's great. It's so good. So what did it what were you doing before you developed sector 17? Did you have, like, careers beforehand? Were you like, accountants before you? Well, I mean, so sector 17 started when I was 17. Oh. So if my career was, this is it, like you'd. This is. Yeah. I mean, I was a busser, a busboy at Eddie's restaurant. That was my career. But, yeah, I mean, so I was real young. I mean, in high school, that was kind of the M.O. as we were skateboarding, drawing, you know, painting, personal projects. Just, you know, in the graffiti tradition and, just being young kids, you know, teenagers and, sector started as kind of, jump off from what we had been doing, just our own art. And then eventually somebody around that time had asked us to do, hey, do you do commission stuff? And one of the first jobs, was down at the YMCA. There was like a youth center, in the basement of the downtown Y and a couple other jobs like that. But then we needed to have a name for this separate work. And it was it was a different sector from what we were doing. I don't know, that's sort of a rough 17 year old fuzzy logic of how sector 17 came to I love it. It's a great name. And it's kind of just stuck over the years. But, you know, it's come to represent different things. But always that mural commissioned part of our life. So. Yeah. How how did you figure out the spray painting part? Is that just like, just like. Okay, let's just get down to brass tacks. Were you like graffiti walls? Like, were you, like, doing that first? And then I was like, okay, we can be legit doing this. I cannot confirm nor deny. Yeah. Same answer. But yeah, that was the influence. I mean, that's how you learned, right? Yeah. For me, it was watching a lot of skate videos and I mean, Roads Park wasn't anything near what it is now. It was literally like a flat ground, you know, half of the park. There was a basketball court there. The other half was like all dirt, but there was a bunch of homemade wooden ramps and like, like some of my first memories, I think I was like 12 when I first went to the skate park. And my brother in law at the time was like a really good skateboarder. And he was he was from Seattle. He used to tag on everything and like as a kid, I was so influenced by him. Like I wanted to do everything he did. And that's kind of how I got into graffiti, if you want to call it that. But this is like circa 2000. This is like before 2000. Yeah. Even for me, it was probably like mid 90s, mid to late 90s. But and then that kind of evolved into like once I got into high school and I was taking skateboarding seriously, I'd watch all these skate videos and you see graffiti in the background and it's like this hip hop culture, all the four elements and stuff that I start researching. And I don't know, it just leads to these weird parts of town that people are doing weird stuff and you skateboarding there, and you're like, I'm gonna write my name on this. And skateboarding does play a big part because you are looking at your at your visual landscape differently. Skateboarders don't see like a crusty alley with this weird concrete piece. They see like an opportunity to, you know, get a trick or, you know, to to maneuver in that space differently. And I think, the graffiti mindset is similar, like the, you see, like this rundown part of, you know, some back weird area or out way in the sticks or, you know, the bridges and all that stuff where are usually neglected by general society. And that's where you start to see opportunity in it. That to me, it's like one always been one of the things that draws me into it. And then to create something on top of that that you're proud of or that, you know, like exercise your creativity in that. Yeah. And but yeah. So that is generally how we learned how to paint. And that's why spray paint is that medium. And over the years just getting comfortable using spray paint and being able to manipulate it in the ways that you want it to work for you, just like any other medium, really like watercolors. Like you said, you have a piece in the show and, you know, manipulating the the water in the paint to to, you know, and that's it's another thing. Where are you trying to, you know, corral cats and. Yeah, you know, it's not an easy thing to, to to master or to, you know, gain, hand on. But once you do, it's, it's feels really good and you want to keep doing it. Right. So that's, you know, especially as teenagers, you get hyper focused and, you know, like, we don't have a lot of other responsibilities at the time, you know, so putting all those things together, and especially if you have a, friend group of like minded people, like just feeding off of each other and learning and, you know, and there's no instruction manual either for that kind of stuff. So, a lot of trial and error and a lot of really weird boils in the years. But yeah, just experimenting and letting letting that flow and, and just seeing what happens that, that that's like one of the best things I could pass on to somebody else is finding that for yourself and not letting go or just, you know, continually pursuing it relentlessly, you know, well said. Well said. We'd all do well to do that. Yeah. And it's, it feels like it gets kind of lost. You know, a lot of people feel like you're in competition, especially with social media or, you know, we were talking before the show about, teenagers and all the things they contend with nowadays. And, yeah, just being competitive. But if you can just grow something for the sake of growing something, you know, I mean, it's it's perfect for exams. Those type of influence. But, but just doing it for the sake of doing it and not for, you know, now we get paid. Now we're, you know, this is our livelihood. But that wasn't the case for a long time. And that really, like, had a deep place of love. And like that continues to propel us, you know, like to motivate us because that's still in there, you know. Yeah, I do know I it's, art is vulnerable. This is what I'm learning and I you guys are I mean, I've got one little thing and it's sort of very amateurish. That's in the rotunda right now. And you guys are putting things out where, like, the whole valley is seeing. And it's just. So, and I've told this story before on a prior podcast, but I, I sold I've sold one painting one time. I don't think I can do it because I now like it haunts me, the fact that that person might be looking at it on occasion and seeing my mistakes and like, what was she thinking with here? And and so I like I've laughed about the fact that I could to I was just going to ignore the fact there's this drilling going on. It sounds like there's a giant snoring. I'm not going to lie. I just my wife would say it sounds like me. And so I'm like, we need to see this. So I'm like, man, yeah, I love. Can you hear it through the. Okay. I mean, if it's if it's ignorable, then I think we're probably fine. But I just was like, I don't know whether I should be stopping or it totally sounds like snoring or something. Oh that's hilarious. Anyway, so, so it it's it's vulnerable and I feel like, you know, I it's hard for me to think that somebody might be looking at on a regular basis and maybe scrutinizing. I realize that's not how people are. They're not probably doing that. So then I could let myself off the hook. But how do you do you have any of that? Do you ever think you're like, whoa, that's out there now? And people are driving past like, there's literally thousands of people who see this every single day because there well, I mean, if stemming from that graffiti mindset like especially is young bullheaded teen boys like that was like the goal is to have as many people see that as possible in some circumstances. And then the other thing is, especially back then and even now, like we would go and repaint the same stuff over, like, you know, certain walls that we had access to or whatever, we would paint it. And then, you know, a couple of weeks or months we'd repaint and repaint and repaint it and like, is really not thinking too hard about what anybody else does outside of our group of people or whoever, you know, like that was in that, I don't know, niche, you know, people who had access, but I just think it was just bullheaded, like, you are just so focused on wanting to paint. It's like, who cares? Yeah. You know, I don't know. What do you think? I think that's it's like the goal of art is to make someone feel a certain way, whether it's positive or negative, you're getting something out of it. And if you're the type of artist to take that and use it as motivation to either get better, like, or get worse or just drop it completely, that's kind of my approach. I like having thick skin, and I think putting art in the public helps build that. But, in graffiti is that it's not for everybody, and a lot of people hate it. But if it's done tastefully, you get people that will appreciate it, you know what I mean? Because the amount of work and effort that goes into painting something that you might not have permission to do, you might be doing it at night. You yeah, you know, you have all these risks that you're taking to put paint on a wall. That's all it is. And some people can go way deep and say there's all sorts of subliminal messaging behind it, when really it's just you're painting a name. But when you translate that to, like, public art, you know, we've evolved into this thing now and we do put ourselves out there on Front Street and just like, hey, this is what we do. And it's not even an invite for someone to be like, do better, but it's like, maybe it inspires other people to be like, oh, I can do that, you know what I mean? So. And you can't please everybody. Yeah, yeah, you're right about that. And I don't think our artwork is for everybody, but we've had a lot of opportunities and we've taken those opportunities and done the most with them. And, and anyone can sit around and critique that all they want. But it's like, well, where are you guys? There is you're right. Like, so that's kind of my $0.02 on that. But I like doing it still. You know, it's it's still there. I still have that spark there. And, but we've had so many years of painting in front of people, like not only just putting your work out there and then it's out there for people to see. But like live painting, doing tons of events, just, you know, being in and around the community, like where people can see your process, like you were saying, with the feed melt wall, like you can't hide painting a 100ft wall in the middle of downtown. So and there's, you know, but we also get tons of people who come up to us, like, I've been in this office over here and watch you all week or, you know, I, you know, get people who really love that. And, you know, maybe there's people who don't also. But, yeah, I just I think we're really used to it. Yeah, that makes sense to me. Just really quickly go talk about tagging. Just on a personal note, like we were talking about before the show, that my daughter's in New York City, lots of graffiti there, and I, I find myself fascinated by it, especially if, you know, for on the subway or something like that. And I'm curious if you because sometimes I just don't understand like something's been written I can't read, I don't know, I don't know what some of it might be like gang stuff. I guess there's some things there. But Art, do you have a different vision? Like when you see something, are you able to, like, decipher it better? Do you think that other people could you kind of immediately? Really, it's like speaking another language, almost really visual language. But there's all sorts of small cues and traditions and styles that will lend you to be able to read these names and pieces. And it's almost like a game, you know, if you go into a new city, if you go to New York or if you go to Portland or LA, like, you see these names or these phrases or whatever all over and you're like, oh, that guy's been here. They've been here. She's been there like, and you start it's it's once you have turned a lot of people on to this too, that aren't familiar with graffiti to begin with and the kind of culture of it. But once you start paying attention, you like, wow, there is a story being written in these streets and in these cities, and like, if you're paying attention to it like it's it's crazy. It's almost like this game that's going on that nobody usually, especially in New York, is covered. Right. So you're not it's almost like you're not even seeing it in once. But once you start to pay attention and be like, oh wow. It's some of it's more readable than others. Some of it's just, like monikers like, you know, a car or a dog. Like some people paint characters instead of their names or alongside their names. But there's there's a lot to it, and there is a lot of culture and tradition, some quasi rules and, you know, sort of just that there's a lot to it, more than most people would probably realize. And most of it isn't gang related. That's probably something that a lot of people don't know, especially in Idaho. I just attribute all time. Oh well, I can't read it, so it must be gang related. And most of it's crews. So, I mean, there's a difference between like, gangs and, like in the traditional sense in the, in graffiti crews. So there's big crews that are, you know, some of them are citywide, some of them are regional, some of them are national, some of them are international. Wow. And, you know, those crews are made up of individual artists that have their own, you know, storied reputation. And, sometimes they're in multiple crews. And these crews, some of them go back 30, 40 years. And they're, you know, they have launched crazy international artists careers and, you know, just it it's kind of endless. And there's some really good books about it. There's some good documentaries, if you if you really want to know the basis of a lot of this, there's, is a movie called Style Wars is actually a documentary, that was put out on PBS back in the 80s. And it really like details, the impetus of graffiti and like the origins of graffiti in New York, mostly on the subway system in those in that 80s era. And I think it really started in the, in the 70s, but that'll give you the, a primer on, on all this culture. And it's, it's really cool to see it and you know like beautiful to watch that now. And you're like wow. That's it's just a different world. Yeah. I'm I'm going to see that. I'm going to watch that. That sounds pretty cool. You have a picture. Our whole living room is dedicated to New York City because we're big fans of New York and so love this. Okay. All right. And one of them is a picture. It's it's I think it was taken in the 70s and it's it's inside a subway car. And all the graffiti within subway cars. And there's not as much graffiti inside subway cars now. But this was like back in the day. And so now I'm going to I'm to study it and I happen to know who the photographer was. I don't I bet Clint does. We can we can ask him, ask her if it's, someone named Martha Cooper because she was, very, well known photographer. That happened on, graffiti back in the day. Okay. And Henry Schell Font is another, New York based photographer that really they were some of the first to take on a real look at graffiti, and document a lot of that stuff, which they had no reason to, but they were just drawn to it, like, kind of like you're saying, like, what is this stuff? Why are people writing on the walls and subways and and then recognizing it as a it's really is an art movement. And some people will say that it's one of the only art movements, that was created by the youth. So, you know, you think of like Impressionism or Cubism or Renaissance era, you know, things like that. And those are all, you know, people who were studying or a lot of them adults or, you know, there's a whole class of that. But the the era in New York that was attributed to founding graffiti was mostly, you know, teenage kids from like 12 to 20 or what, a 20 year old was by ancient back then, you know, graffiti. So but it has sparked this whole movement. And then that's kind of transferred into the street art movement and murals, you know, have been around, but they're heavily influenced by that esthetic now. And it's everywhere, you know, in popular culture and advertising and, yeah. So that's an interesting point about the the kids who really had that expression and felt like they wanted to be part of that visual landscape. Yeah. I had no idea. This is a wonderful education. This morning. I did not know this conversation was going to go this direction, but I'm I'm loving it. I think I, I will definitely dive into this incredibly. And there's a lot there. Yeah, yeah. I had no idea. If our listeners feel the same way, they're not like, well, duh, Kelly, everybody knows this, but I, I truly I venture to guess that most people don't. Yeah. Because I have we have these conversations with people because yeah, we will be painting these walls and like wow. And they see us using spray paint. They're like, wow, I love these beautiful, you know, colorful murals. But I assure hate that tag down there on the mailbox. And but but you have to realize that that person who did the tag on the mailbox, sometimes those are really, really well, curated tags, you know, and and not all of them are. And I'd say this all the time, too. There's really good murals out there, and there's a bunch of really crappy murals out there. It's true. The same thing applies to graffiti. Like there's some really good graffiti and people be like, oh yeah, I sit and watch the, freight train cars go by at railroad crossings and there's some cool stuff on there. Guess what? There's also some really crappy ones. So it's like you can't put them either one into a box. You know, there's there's subjective views on all of it. Yeah. Wow. Do you guys remember. Of course you remember the like the first where you said, okay, we're going to be creating something and it's it's going to be on a large scale. Do you remember what that first one, the first piece of art was that you worked together in general? Yeah. I don't know about the first large scale, but I do remember one of the first commission jobs we did together was a place called Graffiti Hair Salon. And, it was on, Milwaukee in that business park, by the mall. Yeah. And they, they contacted going through Myspace. This is Myspace. This is taking it back. Anyone know about myself? Yeah, this is Ben and Michelle. John, if you guys are out there listening. Still good friends to you guys. And this is. Yeah, this is 20 years ago. And they were like, hey, you know, like, you guys do graffiti. It's called Graffiti Hair salon. So they wanted, you know, actual graffiti in there. And we were stoked to do it and trying to just figure out the logistics and how, okay, how do you paint inside the salon and, you know, trying to mask things and cover things and just, you know, doing that client relations. I yeah, like but they, they were really cool and good to work with and it was a good place, but, yeah, there's, there's been so many over the years. Rhodes was a good I mean, that was a little further into the game, but, working with the city on that and so many other entities and artists and, that was that was a good eye opener experience for us working on a bigger scale. I don't know if this is the right terminology, but it's come to my mind. But working with you on a couple of projects, I you have good bedside manner, which is what you would say about a doctor, but I mean, what I mean by that is you're, you're you're artists that are using spray paint as a medium. And I think maybe the, maybe somebody in my age group would make assumptions about how you guys would behave and how you conduct yourselves. From the very beginning, the very first time I met you both, you're you're just really you're interesting. You're, You're well-spoken. You are thoughtful. You have. I'm going to just. You said you have great bedside manner. You're just you're you're it's good. Like, it's it's a really. And I need to do that today. Well, I bring it up because I think there might be listeners or like like that. Why? It's, it's sometimes can be hard to kind of put the two together, because if you want to assume things about people, which I think society loves to do right now, put people into boxes and say, well, they are this you cannot be boxed up. You guys don't fit that boxing, if you will. Yeah, I had a probably attributed for me personally, it's probably how my parents raised me just to be generally respectful towards people, no matter what and give everybody a chance. But when you combine that into like your career, I don't know, I literally reference that in my head a lot like the my dad was very like, hey, this is respect your elders and I. It's like a level of professionalism, like your potential clients want to see come out of someone that they're talking to, like we're strangers to everybody that we go and talk to, whether we're going to work with them or not. And I think the, the, our portfolio helps show that, you know, like we can paint basically anything with spray paint, but I don't yeah, I mean, I and once you get the hang of it and you it's a, it's like an equation like we know we have to have these variables to get an answer. And these are variables, these potential clients are going to give us. They have ingredients. We're like all right we got to chef this up for them. Whether that's you know a quote maybe they see that. And I'm like oh hell no. Like we're good or I'm worthy. You know once they see the clothes that cool and they want to see designs. And then we take these designs and you know, the design phase can go back and forth for a while, but that's part of the job. Like. And sometimes like the older I get, I have to be better and more patient with myself because some people just they have a hard time articulating an idea to us, you know? And in my mind, sometimes we like to just do this and it looks good, but trust me is not what they want. So it's like, okay, you have to kind of work with these people. And, and that's I don't know, man. Like, you can't learn that in college. You have to have your boots on the ground and like doing the work. So. Right. We try to do that, you know, like do it like that. Just painting your name on a wall is a lot of practice, right? You you learn the techniques, you learn how to do this and then how you translate that to like a career path. It's just it's been really trial and error. But we have the formula now and we've had it for the last little while. And I think we can adapt that formula to any skill wall or project or details or whatever, you know, so they like, yeah, the customer is always right if you want to look at it from that perspective. But it's up to us to influence them to like, want things that they never knew they would want. So yeah. Well, and yeah, you look at the like preconceived notions of people you know, like artists already have a reputation or some people just automatically assume you might be flaky or you might be like this pie in the sky type person. But really the business side of it is, like Collin said, that's an important side that you do have to learn. And not everybody is like that. Just as people in general, you know what I mean? Do what you say you're going to do, do it on time, do it on budget. And that's things that you know are important to us just as people being being up front. And I grew up around a small business. My parents owned a small business. So I saw a lot of those practices day in, day out and heard them talking to people and heard them, you know, managing problems and I think that is has rubbed off on me in that way, too. And then, you know, coming from the graffiti world and, you know, both Collin and I are pretty heavily tattooed and people do just have, like, this notion of us sometimes. And, but once you start talking and getting into these, you know, you're old conversations, it's you disarm and then you're just you just be real with people. Really? Yeah. I'm flashing back to when when we were doing the mill because you. I was the point person, but the whole family was involved in that. And so coming up with an idea and you guys, I remember your initial and just for the record, your initial sketch, I would have said, sounds good, do it like that was how I because I'm that's kind of how I make decisions. I made some of those early designs. I yeah, I still I actually have one in my the big horse head and I anyway, I really loved those ideas, but there were so many different people with and family who had their opinions, and we had to make sure that we and you guys handled that so well. You were so patient with us and I was impatient with us. But you guys were you just held it. You were like, okay, we can try that and you come back. Well, how about this? And the other thing that I, I didn't fully grasp is that you don't like pre do the art like you give idea, like our thoughts are like it's going to sort of there'll be a, a barn back here and there'll be a man here and they'll be. But you don't like it's not like we get to see a proof ahead of time, because when you're creating it, that's when it gets created. So we had a pretty darn good idea of what we were going to get, but there were nuances to the actual. There always is. And over the years, we've gotten pretty good about being able to render an idea pretty freaking close to what the actual end result is going to be in. In those days, we were doing a lot of hand-drawn sketches to, and now we use, procreate on the iPad and an illustrator and other tool in some, you know, drawing by hand still, but we can get a pretty good rendering of what it's going to be like now. And that that helps people. It also helps us because, you know, in that feed mill process, doing all of those variations by hand is time consuming. Yes. I think we were, frankly, a huge pain in the ass, but you never, ever let on to it. You. Know. But but here's the here's the converse of that is that you were cool. You know what I mean? If you're like, okay, we need these changes. If you're like, Hawk, make these changes now, damn it. Like, you know what I mean? Like and or, like expecting certain things. Like, a lot of times when people approach us to commission a mural, they've never commissioned art before, right? That's not a typical thing that people do all the time. Most people anyway. And so they're trying to learn the, the situation. And it's up to us to kind of like be their guide and kind of help them through it. But every project is different. Every building is different. The desired result of what they want it to function as is different. There's sometimes there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen on the client, and and so yeah, there's there are a lot of variables and every job is different. But that's something that I kind of love about it too. Like there's no exact, expectation of what the next thing is going to be. Yeah. I don't know how you're good at both sides of it. I guess is part of what I'm getting at. It seems to me like stereotypes. Like, it just seems to me like you could be really good at one or really good at the other. Like, like managing the clients and having them feel happy and all that. And then also doing the art feels separate in my brain. But you two do both very, very well because there's two of us. So I think having both of us, we can go back and forth sometimes we'll kick an idea and be like, is that a stupid idea? And one of us would like, yeah, let's try something else worse. Is this sound cool? Yeah. Let's try this. I think having two brains kind of tackling one entire project from start to finish helps a lot. But we also work solo too, so it does become that much more like when I'm working by myself. Or he's doing a separate project too. It's like you have it's double the work, you know what I mean? Because now you're having to do double the work like you have to do the whole thing. It's really just the normal amount of work. But we're so used to having another person and it's fun to do both. I like to do my own projects. I know he does too, and when we do a lot together. But it also a point about having another person is the crash out factor. So if we're, you know, we're doing it mock ups and like they want a we want to completely switch gears to some other stuff that you suggested a long time ago, but we didn't want to do it. And now we want to do it. And I'm like, I do not want to mess with them anymore. I am done. Like, let's just trash this like I don't want to do this anymore. And Collin might be like, well, you know, like, let's just see where this one goes. Or, or vice versa. He's like, I'm done, bro. Like, this is whack. And I'm like, well, you know, like I said, there's as long as we're both not crashing out at the same time, then then we're still in business and, it is kind of a rare thing to, you know, and working together to even, like, on when we're actually physically painting it, it's just helpful, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I've noticed this, but a few podcasts we've had with partnerships, you it there's something about that, that trust that you have one with one another to have a business together, but you're also creating things together. There's there's really something to that. The ability to have another person help you with that and on both sides. So I do you feel like I understand you are able to do and you do do things separately, but it sounds like you prefer and obviously you're still, you know, you're still obviously partners in this business together. So you haven't unless today's the day you're about to announce that you're done. I guess my question is, I guess is, is that do you do you take time to kind of, appreciate the partnership and recognize each of your roles and, and, and where each one of you is strong, maybe stronger than the other one and. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's inherent almost now it's just kind of part of it. But, it, it's just it's kind of a rare thing. And the more we've traveled through the world and met tons of artists, and there just is that that trust factor. But I think the basis of all that is that we are friends. First we were just homies, that we were skateboarding and doing whatever before there was any potential thought of a business or even even collaborating in that way necessarily. So I think keeping that in tact and being able to like, use that as a platform or a solid foundation for that business aspect is invaluable. Was there a point when you guys realized that you weren't just making art anymore, that you were actually, like, shaping the Treasure Valley and and like the visual aspect of like, it's I never thought of like when I saw that question when you emailed them over like that got me thinking, because when we were doing all this stuff, I never thought of that ever. And we would, you know, we would go and paint our little like someone wanted their, our names on their wall and like a graffiti style production, we'd go do it. And then there is a couple of instances where, like cops would get called in, like they would show up and start harassing us. And I'm like, dang, you like doing illegal? Yeah. Like, oh, we're getting paid to do this. And they're coming over and telling us what we're doing is illegal because of because we're using spray paint like, I remember we had this instance and we were in the North End painting this lady's fence, and we were just writing our names, and the lady was totally cool. And one of her neighbors, an elderly gentleman, a gentleman, came down the alley and was like spying on us. And we were like, hey, like trying to be polite. And he, like, scurried off. And then next thing you know, like within 15 minutes, there's like five cop cars, like cornering us. And we got an argument with them and like, a philosophical debate. Yeah. And this, this cop, one cop, he was just targeting him and and Hawk was like, so if I was doing this with a brush, it wouldn't be graffiti. And he's like, yeah, exactly. And he was just like, you're an idiot, dude. Like, get out of here. Like and they eventually left and they, but the lady had to like, she let us finish the mural that we did, and then she had to paint over it in like two weeks. Oh. So it was like, basically just to appease her neighbor. Yeah. And so I. And this is in an alley. Yeah. This is an alley in the North End, like literally tucked in the corner. So when all that was happening, I didn't know that it was going to turn into what we're doing now. But, you know, even other instances where it's just like we're working with spray paint, cops show up and they immediately like, they're like, you guys are doing the wrong thing. This is illegal, but you have permission to do this. And it just to me, that was kind of like, I'm going to keep doing this to prove a point. Like, this is art, this will be art. You just wait and see. And I think in, you know, from then to present, like that's opened up a lot of opportunities for other artists to like, paint on buildings and do murals and stuff like that. So I don't like when you're in the trenches, you don't think about that really. You're just like, I want to get this project done to the best product that I can put out, and then move on to the next one and hope that it opens more opportunities. But I don't think when you're doing that, it's not really on the forefront of my mind anyways. You can't see the forest through the trees, right? Yeah, yeah. And to be honest, I still think we're learning so much. Like, it's not like you get to this point and you're like, oh yeah, I've done it all. It's like, nah, man, I still got goals as a muralist and places I want to travel and budgets I want to meet, you know what I mean? Like it's there's some people that that do really great things get paid well and I don't know, there's always more to do for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And just to touch on like the visual landscape thing and in creating that in Boise, like that was something that we wanted to see, we saw in these videos and magazines and whatever. But Boise didn't have much of. So it was us trying to influence that in our community by just doing it now, whether we were like, hey, we're going to take over, we're going to do this, that it was just I think it was more, subconscious thing for us based on, like, wanting to see what wasn't there, you know? Okay, I think I get it. Yeah, it's I mean, Boise was Boise has grown so much with us, you know, in these last 20 years of of us doing what we love to do. And Boise has grown to be another type of animal. And the rise of, of, this kind of street art or like, popular culture influence of graffiti, it's all kind of happened at the same time. So we've, we've had help. I when I think about as I was getting ready for this podcast, I was thinking about this, that because I've worked with you and you have created art for our family and Western affair and other things that we've been involved with. I feel like every painting that you make is also like I'm a part of like that. You've defined that that feel like once people work with you now, they're like, I'll see something. I'm like, and Clinton, I sometimes will pull over and see to see if there's a sector 70, because we're like, that's got to be. And then we kind of in our mind like we were a part of it, even though we weren't part of any of it, you know. But but there's that sort of community aspect I love that. Yeah. No, that's that's it really is, though. I mean, like, we wouldn't you guys are part of the it's like the stepping stones, you know, like or like you think about like mushrooms in the forest and how they're all connected. Like, that's kind of like what I maybe that's what we are to some degree, to the community. I don't know, like we've we've worked with a lot of people and we've done a lot of things and, and it's yeah, I don't know at some, some weird way they're all weaved together. Yeah, yeah, yeah sure I see that. Yeah. But you know, if you take that to the graffiti view, you know, it's like if you go to New York next time, you know, if you go to visit your daughter, whatever happens, like, you go to her neighborhood and you'll start to see this name in this name. And then once you see them enough times and over enough days, you you start to feel like you maybe know them and you're like, wow, okay, you see this visual record of what this person did over here? It it's kind of related in that sense. I feel that there's a there's somebody who it's all chalk art. So it goes away as soon as it rains or snows or whatever. Right now, they probably don't have any of that because they're totally Snowden. But anyway, they just things that are written on the sidewalk and it'll be and I'll notice that it's like the same they'll have like, it's like there's a signature and I'll notice it's the same, but they might be writing different things. Yeah, yeah, but I'll stop. And sometimes I'll read what they're saying and I'm like, I needed to read that. And it sort of changes the rest of my day because it has got me thinking how you connect with. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, so what's next? What's, what does the future hold for sector 17? I don't know yeah. Yeah I think that's a great answer I love it. You have some projects in the works, just you know, doing some designs and, and, trying to make more content because we were talking about this this morning, like, we have, like, these skill sets, but sometimes you're just too tired to, like, film and edit and do all that stuff, at least for me, like, you know, and and, yeah, I don't know, just paint bigger, like, travel more like that's to me is like the goals of what we do is like, explore the world. Because that's where I get the reset. And get re-inspired. And you bring that stuff back home and you're like, all right, now it's time to, like, put that into motion. But yeah, I think just like trying to just stay busy really. And, and in any way that is like I've been working on like oil paintings and I'm not like formally trained, just like learning how to do it, but also like applying what I've learned from painting realism with spray paint to like, oils. It's like it's really fun, takes a lot more time. And sometimes I'll be like hours into a painting, be like, damn, I could have painted a huge wall with doing that. But then again, it's not all about the scale. It's literally like you have to do things to stay like, like invigorated with the process because it's easy to get burned out like it really is. I'm glad to hear you say that. I feel like you're speaking my soul because that's how I'm with watercolor. I'm not formally trained at all. Yeah, I'm just kind of learning as I go. I might watch a video here or there to figure out how did they make it look like that. And then I try it and they play around it. But it's yeah, it's a fun process and it and it's and just doing it changes me. Yeah. You know, so even if it doesn't end up being something that anybody even cares about. Yeah. Painting which does most of the time therapeutic. Yeah. And it should be fun. Like art at the end of the day should be fun, right? It shouldn't be something that you go into a studio in. You're like, oh man, I got to do this and you know something's wrong. Yes. You got to like, you know, wash your brain and and get a reset. But yeah, I don't know. That's just kind of my $0.02 on that. Yeah. Well we're going to do a little mid break here and give some a shout out to our sponsors. Amigos. This episode is brought to you by Zamzows. Your local source for garden, pet and planet friendly products. As a thank you to our Nobody Knows listeners, you can use code 17 and you're going to spell that out. You're not going to use the numbers 17 at checkout on Zamzows.com to receive 10% off your online order. The discount applies automatically and is valid online only and excludes lawn programs. And this particular, promo will run through June 30th of 2026. So please give that a go. You can even buy online and pick up in store at any of our 12 Treasure Valley locations. Visit Zamzows.com and let's grow something good nobody knows like Zamzows. Okay, we're shifting gears. We're going to go to sharing is caring. This is what I call the rapid fire, although it doesn't have to be rapid at all. But it can be. However you like to answer. So I'm going to ask the question, and then you can both answer it and whichever order you like. Okay. So first question, how about a mural anywhere in the world that inspires you? Let's see the saber. He's a graffiti artist from LA. He did a piece in the LA River that holds a world record for one of the largest graffiti pieces ever. Illegal. Illegal. But, yeah, he he did. This one was that early 2000 or late 90s? Yeah. If you if you Google Saber, saber, MSC la River, you'll you'll see it's visible. It was like one of the first pieces that was visible from satellites. Oh cool. It's huge. So I would say that's one of my inspirations. Yeah. I would say, I don't know about a specific mural, but, just Mexico and Mexico City in particular. Like their depth of history of murals, they playing into their culture on all types of murals, and also their graffiti scene. But being there and seeing the quantity and quality and, like, how intertwined it is to their history and how people have utilized it, that was probably like one of the most inspiring things to me. Yeah, I want to see both now. That's awesome. All right. How about a local Boise Creative or a business that you admire? I was going to go with, our buddy Bobby. Guy ten. He is, he was one of the first people that I knew of that was in this graffiti realm. Like, before I even started, he was putting little magazines together. Is really good. Airbrush artist. He was airbrushing like lowrider cars. Graphic designer, amazing illustrator. And he's still, still doing it to this day and doing all of it really well, I probably have to say Rick Walter. Yes. He's another person that when we were starting out and I was starting out, I just really inspired by his pieces. And he's had he's he does more of, like, the fine art stuff. He has a graffiti background as well, but his, his oil paintings are like really rich and, I don't know, thought provoking. So I have to give him a shout out, hey, this is not a part of these, but I just have this question as as a fellow artists. Haha. I'm not really, but do you ever have moments when you're when you do something and you don't? It's something like instinctual. You decide to. And I'm going to use in your terms. You decide to like maybe throw a shadow in somewhere that you that you just totally out of instinct and later you're like, oh my God, that was freaking brilliant. Do you have moments like that? Oh yeah. For sure. Yeah, I think that's why I do art for those moments, because then I'm like, I did that, but I don't think it was me. Like it came through me and it just happened. Getting that in that flow state. And you just have. That's why doing personal projects is fun too, because you can just throw those ideas in on the fly. You don't have to approve it. Yeah, through the powers that be or anything like that. And yeah, sometimes the best happy accidents are just random ideas come about in those situations. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. Okay. How about a project that you haven't done yet that you're dreaming about? I would definitely say like painting. Like a multi-story building. Like a big building, you know, like, it you travel in Europe and you see these murals that are like, six stories tall. That's definitely on my bucket list. And I know we can do it. I mean, and most of those buildings are like, the architecture is a grid, so it's to scale things up. It's really like all you gotta do is use that grid and then sketch, and your design will stay scaled and proportional and stuff. So definitely like we've had our name in the run, like the, KeyBank building downtown that has a large, like, kind of river scape on it. Like we had our name in the in the ring for that one and a couple others, but we'll get there eventually. And I know I yeah, that's, that's one of the big ones for me too. We've traveled quite a few places and painted and been able to do things, but and painted at a large scale too. But that is kind of the next step in that direction. Oh, I can't wait. I will look very forward to that. All right. Final question on this particular segment. Something outside of art that recharges you. I produce a lot of music. And really deejay. So that's kind of like my escape. I like house music and, like, jazzy influenced house music. So I love jazz. You combine the two powers and that's like, oh, that's a great reset. You continue to surprise me. That's that's that's so awesome. I love that answer. It's fun. It's fun. Yeah. I, you know, I have a nine year old daughter, I think spending the time with her and trying to see things through her eyes and, you know, trying to get down and be a kid with her is is always helps my brain distract from adult life and all the other things. Snowboarding. We love to get out to the mountains. Yeah. Physical activity. Okay, this is the last question we ask all of our listeners. There are no rules, so this should work nicely for you too. Answer it however you like. What is something that nobody knows? Was a plumber for, like, 5 or 6 years, and that's what I was doing before I got into art. So. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Worked in the trades. That's that's vastly different because plumbing, like, you're not going to get creative with that. You got. Well, I guess you can there are some creative there's some creative plumbing. I've seen that for. Yeah. Yeah. When when I was learning how to like, solder copper and brazed copper like something. There's a process to it. And you want clean beads that basically create a seal. And so I would spend too much time like, I'm an artist, so I'm sitting there like, I don't want any solder dripping. Like, I want these things to be perfectly square. My boss was like, no, like, no, that's not we have PEX. It's plastic, it bends. And that's. So anyways, yeah, I can apply art to anything in my life, but yeah, plumbing was one of the motivators maybe like do this full time, you know, so like my grandfather was a plumber and I think very similar. In fact, when he retired, he still he would make like figurines out of some of the stuff that he. Yeah, a lot of cool materials to work with. But yeah, I that's not everybody knows that. Yeah. So interesting. All right. I don't know if this counts, but I'm kind of like a crazy animal person. And I have, a cat and a dog and a snake and chickens at my house, and that's, you know, when Collin, Collin's youngest daughter, would come over to my house and be like, can we go Seahawks farm? And, and, you know, and I go to Sam's goes to get my rats, every three weeks or so. So. Well thank you. Yeah. Great answers. Great answers. And this entire conversation was wonderful. I knew it was going to be I was so excited when you agreed to be on the show. And I, I will continue to, watch your art and be a part of of your journey because I just love it. I love that you're a part of our community and you're creating art for all of us here. We all get to benefit by you guys doing what you do. So thank you for doing that. Yes. Thanks for having us on. Absolutely. Okay. If you enjoyed today's conversation, please follow the podcast and leave a review. Next week we'll hear from another incredible voice shaping the Treasure Valley. And until then, thanks for listening.