Welcome to the Nobody Knowz podcast with Callie Zamzow. join us for conversations with local changemakers and hear the stories that don't always get told. It'll be honest, messy and beautiful. Touching and humorous. Slow down for a glass and pull up a chair. This is the nobody knows podcast. Welcome to Nobody Knows. I'm your host, Callie Zamzow.. Ha! Okay, so I have a tip of the week that I want to share with you a Zamzow's tip of the week, if you will. And it's it's kind of fun because we are going into chicken season, and we love chicken season exam zones. What it means is and guess what? You don't have to even buy one. But when you come into our stores, you're going to hear cheep cheep cheep cheep cheep. It's like the best sound in the whole world, and you get to go over and check them out and they're they're fluffy and cute and wonderful, and it's one of my favorite parts of the year. So I bring that up because this coming up Saturday, March 14th, 2026. In case you're listening, in the future at 10 a.m. at all of our stores, we're having a chicken class. So if you're thinking of or if you already have chickens and you have questions or you're thinking of getting chickens and you want to know how, or you're just one of those people who's curious will come on to any one of our stores, and I will be giving those classes there for free, and I will will help you out and answer your questions. Also happening this week, and you may have already gotten one if you are on the Zamzows lawn program, but step one it's time. Time to apply. So you'll be getting. If you haven't gotten your, your notification yet, you will at some point in this, you know, the next week or so, there's a huge window for this first step. So don't feel like you're behind the eight ball if you haven't put it down yet. But it's, it definitely once you get it down and it gets watered in, things start to pop. So. So hopefully those two things are helpful. Tips for you today. Also, this morning, as I'm preparing for this podcast, I was thinking about times when, nature affected me in a wonderful way and I was thinking about it. I know I tell a lot of stories about me as a kid. I guess that's all I can think about is when I was a kid. But when I was little, I think I was about 6 or 7. My parents, ended up going in on a on a, a cabin, a log cabin that my dad actually, when he was a little boy, helped to actually skin the logs and helped build the cabin. And so it's kind of, it's a it's in the family, so to speak. And, at about that age, he got some ownership in the cabin. So we began to go up there and it's it's in Cascade, a real rustic, like there's no phone, there's no TV, there's no like, it's real rustic. So it meant a lot of outdoor time. And for us kids, it was an opportunity for us to go and explore. And we didn't have our parents with us all the time. So it was a really cool time to, you know, there were places that they didn't want us to go in. Please don't go near the lake without us, you know, that sort of thing. But as long as we stayed fairly close by, we did all sorts of exploring, and our imaginations ran wild when we would. The. I remember that there was an old house that must have burned down or something, and it was just like the chimney was the only thing left. And we went exploring and and we made up a whole, you know, we called it Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, and we did all these things with it. Anyway, such a wonderful experience. And I bring that up because it applies with our guest today. So today we have Serena Rasmussen. She is the executive director of Wild Hearts Idaho. And we're going to talk about some of this outdoorsy stuff today. Yeah, absolutely. We are. Welcome to the studio. I'm so glad to have you. I'm so excited to be here. I'm really curious about this. I've. I've only heard a little bit about it, so I'm learning a whole bunch. While you and I are talking today. And I'm really curious about all of it, and I'm excited to have you share. Before you do, will you just kind of share with our audience who you are and kind of, you know, maybe, maybe kind of how you got where you are currently? Yeah. Again, I am the executive director of Wild Hearts. I am from Boise. Growing up, running around the foothills, mountain biking, camping myself, did a bit of a stint away and went to school in Colorado and just realized how much I loved Idaho and moved back, pretty quickly after graduating. I did not stick around, for too much longer and moved back to Idaho and just really have reflected a lot on how the outdoors have impacted my own life and how important it was for me to be able to get outside in Idaho in these natural, wild places that we have in the state, and making sure that I can share that with the next generation, so that more and more people are going outside. Love it. I yeah I wonder sometimes if this podcast was elsewhere, if it was in New York City, if like the well what, what, what, what would be the what, what's the importance in that. And I think that's, that's part of what we're gonna be talking about today. I, I'm grateful that we live here, because I think that I think by living here, just we kind of know, we kind of understand. And it's part of the reason why we all like to live here. I mean, I suppose there's some people who never go up in the mountains. I know that there are people like that, but there definitely are. But for the most part, people in Idaho, people who have grown up having these outdoor spaces, having the foothills right there, having the opportunities to get on. Even the Boise River that's just running through town. Yeah. People know how to love and respect and cherish and know why it's important. Absolutely. My husband and I, well, sometimes we kind of have our regular route in the neighborhood that we do our regular walk to get our three miles in. Yeah. Got it down to, like, the exact, but sometimes I'll say let's let's do it on that long the river today just because I want to be. And I really like the parts of the greenbelt that actually aren't paved, but you can kind of really get back there and sort of feel like you're in the wilderness. And then everyone, somebody look over and there's a house. Yeah. So there's back to there is outdoors and there is wilderness. You know, there's there's outdoors and wild spaces and then there's wilderness. Yes, we do get to have all of those so close. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So how did you first get connected to Wild Hearts? Yeah. I actually have a river guiding background. Oh, yes. And so I was, you know, I river guided through high school and college and was doing some moonlighting as a river guide, with a company that Wild Hearts uses to go down the salmon River. And so I actually was a river guide, taking the girls down on their first salmon River trip when I first discovered Wild Hearts Idaho. And I was very fortunate. The volunteers, the time I was chatting it up and being like, hey, what is this? You know what's going on? How do I get involved? And they mentioned, hey, we're looking for a new executive director right now. And it just worked out really well in my life that I was like, this is something I want to do. This is something I want to dive into. And so I applied and got in. Oh that's cool. Can we talk about River guiding for a second? Just a little off topic. No, it's not I I'm just always so fascinated. I in a younger part of my life, I did some river rafting and, you know, did the Middle Fork and the salmon and, they had some, some really great adventures. I don't if people have never done that before. Can you kind of describe because you don't see you go down some of these rivers and you're not it's not like you're stopping off at a grocery store part along, you know? I mean, like, it is you're in the wilderness. Yeah. Especially, you know, especially Idaho where we have these multi night whitewater river night stretches. You know, the salmon River is the longest undimmed, free flowing river in the lower 48. And so being able to go on, I believe, you know, 80 miles of through the wilderness, through the Frank church, where it's the largest untouched wilderness in the lower 48, largest free flowing river in the lower 48. There is nothing there. There is. There's the road that you drive in to get there. You park your cars, and then you're the next time you see a car, the next time you see a road, the next time you see anything manmade is when you're at the bottom, 80 miles later. Yeah. Now, coming out the other side, like you are in some of the most rugged and rural country you can get to. And there's I mean, there's some sketchy parts to where I, I remember at one point we had to the guides kind of got out and scouted ahead of us, and then they came back and like, we're going to we're actually going to skip over this one. We're not going to go through. And so we actually got the boats and went around it and yeah. Yeah. You have to I mean you have to be adaptable. Like that's there is the level of consequence is different. You know, when you're that deep into the backcountry because you can't just call 911 and have an ambulance come there. You can't come, you know, call your buddy with a pickup truck to help. Hey, we got stuck. I need a help getting off of this, or. Hey, we forgot to pack the milk on this trip. You know, we just run to the grocery store. Like you have to be ready to be adaptable. You have to be ready to be flexible. And you have to be ready to make those decisions and then make a safe choices so that you're not putting yourself in these just dangerous and risky situations. Yeah. I'm sorry, I'm still saying I one other question and then we'll stop talking. You know, this is all related I am curious about because I was I just got to travel along like I was not I was not part of the the team doing anything. So which was a lovely position for me to be in. However, I was watching nonstop when especially when like a big rapid was coming up and the the techniques for the various things that they encountered, whether, you know, and I don't know the names of what they all are, but I remember them, you know, kind of shouting back, as it were, quite a few boats. And so they were talking to one another and, and talking it through about how they were going to get through it. How do you, do you how do you learn that? Do you have you learn that. Yeah. I mean, that's what we're I mean, part of that's what we're trying to teach our wild hearts. But it's a lot of experience, a lot of skill and a lot of having mentorships. So something like rafting, you know, is is very much a pretty solid, like oral mouth tradition, like it is passed down from the older guides who, you know, we're just a bunch of crazy yahoos in the 80s, you know, on a military surplus gear going, let's do this. Let's see if we can do it. And they had to learn these techniques and figure it out. And then they passed it on. And they've been perfected throughout the years. And now we have these great guiding traditions of mentor guides, teaching the young guys coming on in and then bringing in wild hearts where we're trying to, like, start passing some of that knowledge down to high schoolers so that they can decide, hey, this is what we want to do, this is what we want to learn. And then they can go in and get those jobs and apply to be river guides themselves, falling in love with being outside. So cool. It's really awesome. Okay, so you so as a river guide, there has to be some of the the process there that helped guide you into this leadership role and kind of taught you things about how to be a leader. Can you speak to that a little bit as far as like kind of how you became a leader through this whole process? Yeah, I very much my leadership story does follow my guiding story. You know, I like to, you know, say I was I was incredibly awkward in middle school as I think so many people are. Yeah. Me too. Middle school is such a challenging time. The worst. And I didn't want to be honest. I didn't want to talk to anyone. Didn't want to talk to any adults, didn't want to talk to anyone my age. But I love the outdoors. And I loved getting outside. And I was very fortunate, to find the opportunity to get outside through a kayaking camp. Fell in love with rivers, want to be a river guide? I ended up loving it so much. I ended up pestering a river local river company into taking me on as an unpaid intern. A swampy haha. And so through that. Through learning these skills and that desire to get outside and be with these people and these, you know, really cool older guides that were teaching me things, I had to learn how to interact with guests, and I had to learn how to command my own boat, and I had to learn how to put on that river guide voice that like, okay, all forward or we need, I need you to listen to me right now. I know I am an 18 year old child and you are 50 year old, you know, CEO, but I need you to listen to me right now because we all need to be doing what I need you to be doing. And that was, you know, this being able to have this presence and have this understanding and expertise in the outdoors is what has led me then to be able to come into other spaces in the front country and as, executive director of a nonprofit and just command that space, what did it feel like when you were young and but then trying to have to like, how was that difficult for you to do, or did you come to it pretty easily once you realize it was anxiety inducing? Oh, absolutely. No it doesn't. No. None of this comes easy. Absolutely not. You're brave. You're brave person. I had to and that was. And that's part of like also you know, you were day four in the back country. You known these people for a little while and then you had to come and command that space. Yeah. I think it's interesting sometimes how leadership comes when we're really passionate about something else. Maybe not as passionate about that leadership part yet, but we're passionate about something else that's driving us. And in order to do that thing, we have to do this thing. And so we're like, all right, I'll figure out how to do this thing and so that I can get to this thing. Absolutely. Yeah. That's cool. And at such a young age, what a great time to be learning. Very fortunate. Yes. Yeah. So before Wild Hearts you worked with a nonprofit foster home. And then also, that Stem learning lab. Yes. You did. Okay. The tutor mobile. Yes. Okay. So how can you talk about those two experiences and then kind of how they how they shaped things for you. Yeah. So taking you back to Covid times, you know, everything's in lockdown. There's not a lot going on. I got a job working, as the admin, basically the person in charge of this nonprofit foster home up in McCall. And that really helped me, develop some of the skills, the background for nonprofit management. That was where I was learning how to grant. Right? I was learning how to budget for the first time. I was learning how to do the accounting for a nonprofit. Basically all of the things that you need to keep the lights on. And that was fun. I say that, you know, it was it was a great job. It was a great educational and learning opportunity. But what I really loved about that job was I was able to, like, make this connection with the local library up there. And it was Covid. And so they let me, you know, we were able to write a couple grants and I was able to take the Parks and Rec bus, and we we were recognizing that kids in these rural communities that weren't able to get into school, were not being impacted with as much educational opportunities as certain other kids. So I was taking the Parks and Rec bus with a different, science Stem project every single week to some of the lower income communities in that rural area, Valley County. And we were just doing science, and it was just fun. There was no grades associated. It was just getting kids out of the house during Covid outside because Covid, and doing science. So we did a lot of, you know, baking soda, vinegar, volcanoes and and we were playing with magnets and we tried, you know, I had a whole little robotics lab. And so just trying to get kids outside and engaging in educational opportunities in a, you know, easy setting, no stakes, and just engaging kids with learning and education. Yeah, yeah, that's, when I think about I was I'm piecing together your trajectory here, spending the time then with the kids. Yep. And then being able to command the people. And when you're on the boat and try it. Yeah. So. Okay. All right. Is piecing together here for me. Yep. Let's just take a moment now and talk about, wild Hearts. Yes. So will you just give us, just kind of a high level of of what? What the organization does. Yeah. And then, and then from there, we can kind of work backwards into some of these other things. Yes, absolutely. Wild hearts is a small, local Boise based Treasure Valley nonprofit that teaches hearts for leadership through exploring Idaho's outdoors. So what we really our mission is to grab kids, grab girls in particular, age 12 to 18, and expose them to the outdoors as an educational classroom so that they can learn leadership skills but also build confidence and community. And so using the outdoors has this way to do that. Oh man, that sounded a little weird, but that's what I wanted to do. Yes. Yeah. Why do you think that, Wild Hearts is something that is needed in this valley? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I personally, I think Wild Hearts is needed everywhere. Kids today are, you know, we're in we're in this really tough mental health crisis right now. You know, teenagers are really struggling. You know, we're seeing increasing rates of, you know, depression and anxiety among our teens. And there's a lot of reasons for that. There's so much going on in these kids lives, that Wild Hearts isn't going to fix everything, but we can at least grab a couple of kids and say, hey, let's take a pause. Let's take a break. There's so much going on in your front country life right now. That's what we call it. There's so much country and country in that country. Oh, I like, you know, but there's so much going on at school. There's so much going on in home life. There's so much, you know, going on online. Let's just take a pause for that. Let's set all that aside. Let's go into the backcountry, you know, let's go outside. Let's take a second to realize that there is more to life than what is going on in school, that you can also go outside, you can calm down, you can reset your nervous system. You can make friends that are outside of your current school group. If you need that, we can build a community of people your age that are also excited about getting outside. And so, you know, we run all sorts of different adventures. So we'll run rafting adventures, we'll go backpacking. We just got back from a, you know, overnight year camping trip in the you know, snow. And so that's cool. Ten girls in a year doing art and singing songs, you know, outside staring at the mountains. And so we can just have this reset. We can have this recognition that, like, you can form these groups, you can build this community, you can get some confidence in yourself as you were learning, you know, at 14, how to split wood and keep fire going all night. You can know that and then bring those skills back and bring that confidence back into your life and hopefully supersede some of these challenges that you're facing in your day to day parents. Usually the ones I would cover as the kids show interest, they would come and say, I want to do this, maybe a little, but it definitely is a little bit of both. With middle schoolers, we tend to see parents signing them up. You know, we'll have, you know, parents be like, go for a weekend. Yeah, go have fun. I want you out out of the house. High schoolers are usually signing themselves up. Okay. And so part of it is, you know, we want parents or kids to express interest in this and want to. And then we want them to keep coming back and then they. So then there are different options for whether it's river rafting that they're interested in or if it's something else to kind of make that decision. And then what are the lengths of these, how long are they. So our you know, our goal is to be accessible like our our program is entirely free. We provide all of the gear transportation instruction. And part of that accessibility that we're also recognizing is also fear and personal fear. So, you know, we might offer, you know, 3 or 4 night backpacking trip, but if that's going to scare a kid away, they're like, I don't want to go in the backcountry with these crazy people that I don't know, right? It seems crazy. We'll do a lot of local hikes, you know, we'll do an afternoon. Last year we were doing some yoga and art in the park just to get kids to learn and meet us, meet our volunteers, meet some of the people that they will know and then go, okay, maybe I will go on a one night camping trip with these guys and then know, okay, well, now I'm really sold. I love this, let's go backpacking. What's actually pushed myself into something that would be challenging that I've never done before? So it can build up. Yeah. Depending upon the kid. Yes. We like to steppingstone in. Yeah. Okay. So entirely free. Entirely free. But tell me about that. Yeah. I mean, we recognize that the outdoors, the outdoors should not have any barriers to access. The outdoors is for all of us. It's a space that we should all be able to know and love and experience. However, it's hard to get outside. If your family isn't already going outside. If you're not already, your friends aren't. Are you recreating outside? If you don't live next to the foothills? There's a lot of kids in the Treasure Valley that are still not getting outside. I think about a third of our kids are first time rec-creators, so I'd never really been outside before their wild heart's adventure. And gear is expensive. Transportation is expensive. This is hard for a middle schooler, you know, especially who doesn't have a car. And even some of our high schoolers don't have cars and don't have that access. So we really try to make sure, you know, through fundraising, through the community, through grants, that we are able to make sure that our program is entirely free for all parents and kids. So from a parents perspective, and, so my daughter didn't do Wild Hearts that her school would do these camping trips and just in the high school end of things. And, so when she, she moved in, I guess ninth grade is when she started that school and it was the first one. And they start right off in the fall. Yeah. Right off and and it's you're off the grid. Yes. They're in a place where even if they wanted to turn their phones on and call, there is no signal. That's great. And from the parents perspective, in the beginning it freaked me out. I was like, and, you know, I was I was a parent who and my poor daughter, however, I think it was in her best interest, but I was one of the parents who held out. So every kid in her class had a phone before she did. And, and, you know, they were Snapchatting and she wasn't in on it. And so there was a lot of that kind of so but when it came to these camps that they, they would do and they would be gone for the very first one, I think they were gone for four days off the grid. And that was the most time she and I hadn't had connection with each other, however, and that was very anxiety causing in the beginning. By the end, I think we both realized, oh, this is something I can do. And in an age where we're so connected, just learning that you can be without being connected is a wonderful lesson to learn. Yes. Yeah, difficult. Incredibly difficult. So yeah, we are incredibly connected these days. You know, we have those phones in our pockets. We're constantly texting everyone. But you know, the way we have parents as well that are like constantly talking to the in town contact when the kids are out and being like, I need an update. And we just have to keep reminding them no news is good news. You know, you don't want us to be talking to you before the end of the adventure. Yeah, you know, that's that's an indicator that something else is going on. You don't need that right now. They're all happy. They are all outside, and they're doing what they need to be doing. You know, cell phones are still a very new, you know, addition to our lives and to our society. And we used to go many, many, many weeks without talking to people. True. And it's okay to get back to them in just limited context. Yeah. It's difficult to do that, you know, so especially because we're so connected and, you know, you've got your social what roughly would have been about 13 or 14, I guess, when she took that very first one and I oh man, I it was very challenging. But I, I wasn't the mom who called every two seconds because I didn't want to be that mom, but every part of me was like, And I would I'd check my phone just to see if she was like, flipping, even though I think, yeah, no, they were supposed to turn their phones off. So even if I you know, I wasn't gonna be able to reach her regardless, but I would still check I could and then the. Yeah, the moment that she started Blipping, I was like, she's up. You know, I can like I didn't reach out to her, but I like she'll be reaching out to me. So she's good. She's in good hands. But she describes the time as kind of magical two and very, very different than the rest of life. Yeah. So it. Yeah, it's a it's an important thing to be able to do even if you can just do it once. Yeah. You have something to draw on. It is a very clear delineation of space. You know, you have these separate lives. You know, you can very clearly see this is the kind of person that I am normally in my day to day. And then I can have this opportunity to be someone else and explore someone else. Yeah. And I would think that, you know, as a, as a kid growing up, those skill sets, those things learned that you're not I mean, you're not going to learn how to build a fire, generally speaking, unless you're like, she needs you are outside already, right? Yeah. So those kind of skills are those are just kind of cool to know. They're cool skills and they're the kind of skills that you can take with you and hold in the back of your mind and go, hey, even though I'm really struggling on this math test, you know, even though I'm really struggling in this other aspect of my life, like, I know that I am capable, you know, I am know that I am confident that I can do these things and I can do really hard things. And, you know, we find kids talking about, hey, you know, because I was able to push through the challenge and the discomfort of, say, backpacking with a heavy pack up this hill, like I was able then to take that and transfer and know that I can do this hard thing and push through this discomfort, push through this pain, and apply that to day to day life and maybe make it through this math test, maybe make it through this big project, this group speaking project. You have just a whole slew of stories from these kids that had had amazing adventures and then gone on and credit their experience with a change. I then decided to go here for school instead of that, or I decided I was going to go into firefighting because of this or that sort of thing we do. We have a lot of kids who, discover, you know, career opportunities that they never had even thought of or considered before. You know, I'm thinking of one of our kids who graduated two years ago, and because of, you know, rafting trip, she went on with us, learned that fishery biology was a career path that she could just do. And so is now at Montana State, you know, studying fish. And that's what she wants to be doing. And she's going to be doing, you know, stream ecology, ecosystems and hopefully working for fish and game at some point. I think in case you're wondering why I'm just eating this with a spoon, it's just because my kid is in college right now. I'm just imagining, like, what little things are being dropped in her lap right now that she is going to grab Ahold of and say that this. Yeah, this is what this is my thing. Or and maybe it's just my thing for now. It doesn't necessarily have to be your whole life, but maybe. Oh, I'm. I think I might drift this way and see what this path takes me. And I got. So it makes me really lean in as I think about it. But I went on a camping trip one time with Girl Scout. Yes. And so I did have that experience one time, some somewhat similarly, but not quite like I feel like this adventure, the types of adventures that you're creating are an experiences that you're creating are to a whole different level, which is. Yeah. And I know that Girl Scouts have come a long way since I'm 50. So it was a it was a while ago that I was doing these, so I know that things have, have gotten. Yeah. We just have learned we've learned a few things. Right. I learned a few things. Yeah. And we really just do want to focus on the outdoor aspect, you know, and getting outside and having fun in the outdoors. Yeah. So cool. So, okay, this is ten years. So that's I mean, you guys are legit. I hope so. Oh, I hope so at this point. And you were entirely supported by community funding and grants. Yeah. Tell me about that. That's the majority of my job these days. Okay. Yeah. Unfortunately, I, I signed up to be the executive director to go on all the trips, and, no, they put me behind a desk. Yeah. So I spend I spent a good chunk of my time fundraising so that we can make sure that these programs stay free and accessible, and spread across the community. You know, we started with in 2016 with one hike up table Rock, with ten kids. And we've grown, this last summer, 2025, we took 180 girls out, you know, and so we, you know, it's big growth in ten years. And we want to keep growing. We want to go, you know, spread across the Treasure Valley and beyond and Idaho and make sure that all girls have the opportunities to build these communities, build these girls centric communities, and get outside. Have you noticed the, I think it's an Instagram trend that people are doing where they go back ten years and then compare it conveniently to be happening right now. Phenomenal for you guys. I mean, what a huge like that was. A lot happened into 2016. What happened ten years ago. Yes. So how do you feel about that? I mean, the getting to ten year milestone is a pretty big deal. It's a pretty big deal. Yeah. No. And especially we are still a small nonprofit. Like we are not any of the big names in the Treasure Valley. We're not in any of the big names. You know, nationally. But ten years is a lot for us. And we're really excited and we're trying to, like, reach out to some of those early girls and be like, hey, where are you now? What are you doing? Yeah, I would I would be very intrigued by that. Yeah. Me too. And that sounds really cool. So what are you what are you. I mean, I guess we kind of talked about cell phone usage and and just in general. But what are some are there some trends with, with breakfast in particular teenage girls that you're seeing that, that that going out in the outdoors has been helpful for you. Yeah. Especially in the last couple of years, you know, just like talking to the girls and seeing some of their feedback. They what they have been talking about is, hey, especially coming out of Covid, I don't talk to anyone. And so I don't talk to anyone outside of my immediate family group. My immediate friend group. And so Wild Hearts is thrown a girl in a year with ten other girls, you got to start talking to people. And so, like, we've had a lot of girls coming back and saying, like, this is like, the first time this is what brought me, broke me out of my comfort zone. This is what broke me out of my shell and got me to be able to speak to strangers, you know, in a way that I can be confident to, This is, has helped me make friendships for the first time in a long time, you know, and make new friends and learning how to make new friends. Yeah. So building that community, building those connections has been super powerful. Continuing on that where, you know, we're still now starting to step away from that now we're seeing a lot more of like, hey, I'm able to slow down. We still get a lot of kids saying, you know, hey, this backpacking trip is the longest I've ever been without my cell phone, which is, you know, we'll always be a big plus. Yeah, absolutely. But, yeah, just like letting kids slow down an experience. All right, so this feels like. I feel like I'm going into a territory here, but let's just see. So it was my experience, with my daughter, there's a there's a little age range where girls can be particularly mean to each other. Yes. And and not like, calling somebody poopy pants. I mean, like, this is devious, mind screwing kind of stuff that takes place. Okay, so I feel like. And maybe I'm, I guess I, I guess what I would like from you as an understanding of do, is there a little mix of, of those type of people that would, that would end up here and then and then you're kind of work through it, maybe in the groups? Or do you tend to attract the ones that are more persecuted? Do you don't? I'm saying does that make sense, that question. Yeah. I you know, I would say girls come to us from all walks, you know, we have girls that are the confident in their own middle schools and happy, little social butterflies. And we have kids that are not really talk and need that little extra push and help. You know, part of it is, like, we spend the first couple hours of every adventure doing, you know, community bonding, community forming exercises to get the group to know each other and appreciate each other. And then we're the great thing about the outdoors as a classroom is it's a great equalizer. It's true, you know, the outdoors is inherently and supposed to be an uncomfortable place. It's why humans decided to make an indoors, is to make it, you know, convenient and comfortable for us. But the outdoors is supposed to be uncomfortable, and it puts everyone a little bit on the back foot. So even some of our little queen bees, you know, are suddenly, oh, I am in a tent outside. There's a level of vulnerability there. And the only way to move through that vulnerability is to rely on the people with you and the people next to you and the community that you have around you in the outdoors. You know? Yeah, it feels like we would all benefit if every single one of us had to do that. I mean, I agree. Yeah, absolutely. I think it might just change everybody. And I'm just it's very humbling. It is humbling. And it's supposed to be humbling. And it's supposed to, you know, help you build your skills and then build that confidence that you like. I can do that. I can move through that discomfort and I can be resilient through that. Yeah. You are leading in particular spaces. So nonprofits outdoor recreation, youth development and women's haven't always been centered in those areas. So what has it been like stepping in the leadership as a female into a role like this? I mean, it helps that my organization is pretty much, you know, led by women for women. So, yeah, we are you know, we are a girls centric organization. So it does help that that is mine. I mean, part of it does come from that acceptance of the discomfort. You know, I have that outdoor background. I have that river guide background I had that I am a teen, and I now have to command a boat full of 45 CEOs. And you got to listen to me. And I know I'm a cute little, you know, that was that was where I came from. And so just being able to say, hey, this is who I am, this is what we're doing. This is the goal. This is the, like, common mission that we as a group are trying to move towards and saying, this is this is how we're going to do it. You know, those aren't typically spaces that are welcoming for women. No, but we are very fortunate that we are, you know, Treasure Valley community that we are increasing and growing and we can still step into those spaces and step into that power. Yeah. When I was second, first took on leadership and I've told the story before, I'll keep it brief. I, I was the first female and I was taught by men. And so my style. Yes, it's very aggressive. Yes, I have that has been a feedback that I have also received. And, and then as I kind of have shifted and it sounds like you have to kind of into your own and learned your own style and learned your own. What was it that like? Let's it's exciting and scary to be making your own leadership style. You know, I also, you know, frequently was the only woman in the guiding group, you know. And so this is how this is how everyone else was doing it. This is how the boys were doing it. This is how I this is how the examples that I was given was to act like this. And that wasn't going to work for me. And so once I started realizing, hey, that wasn't going to work for me, I had to figure out how what, how will I still get the results and be respected in the outdoors in the way that I need to in order for us to get safely down this river, in the style that I want to. And that'll make me happy and sleep at night and who I want to be. You know, it's interesting, just in this little time that I've been with you, you are a wonderful balance of a. You're strong. You're a strong woman. You've got a, you know, and you're very friendly. You're very kind. And so I, you have this very nice balance and I cannot I'm just imagining being led by you. And I think that you would be just the type of leader that I would, would want to follow. Well, I hope so. That sounds lovely saying that. Well, let's I mean, I think that's it's a delicate balance. I don't think it's easy. And I think you've found a way to strike that, because. Yeah, when you're in the wilderness, like there's no screwing around the great equalizer, you're really. Exactly. So to have especially young people be able to trust you, to follow you, to listen to you because you have authority, but then also know that if they're a little bit lonely for their mama, they could come to you and say, I'm lonely for my mama. Yeah, yeah. That's a that's very cool. And and so now leading other leaders, do you have, do you have a way of teaching that? I mean, I realize that there are other every leader kind of has their own styles. They could have their own style. But do you as kind of the leader of this entire group, do you sort of lead the leaders in that way? And I hope so. I would like to I would like to say I do, you know, we have I don't get to go out on every single adventure anymore, unfortunately. We have a wonderful pool of other community women that want to share their knowledge and their skills in the outdoors. And so we're, you know, we always get together before the adventure season in the spring and do our training and do our like, hey, here's some activities. How we do those group dynamics, those bonding dynamics. Here's how we do the some of those, you know, at leadership education classes, that we wanted to impart on the kids, this year, us as a volunteer group are all going to go on our own backpacking trip. And so we're going to start doing that together, spending more time together and start learning how to lead from the group. Do you have a story of, of a particular person that kind of went through that had a big transformation that you, that you witnessed? Oh, yes. Yeah. Oh, definitely. So many. Okay. Two. I had one girl come with us. I'm going to say another rafting story not to lean on to, but that is where my experiences and that's where I like to see the most transformation. And I always make sure that I go on the rafting trips. So that's the ones that I can definitely speak to. But we had one girl join us on a multi night rafting trip, two years ago. And you know, we get out of the vans, we're at the rafts where ours from Boise, the vans are driving a way to meet us at the, you know, three days later, the take out, and she reveals to us that she is terrified of water and does not want to get on the boats. Mom signed her up. She had no idea what was going on, saw the boats and said, absolutely not. And you know, it was like, okay, well, you know, let's just sit here. Let's let's sit in that for a second, okay? I hear you. We support you. We're going to go make lunch. So we're not getting on them yet. But eventually had to, you know, our volunteers had to coax her, coax her onto the largest, biggest, most stable of the rafts. And that volunteer swears that she still doesn't have feeling in her fingers. She is gripping her so hard. But through the day, she saw the other girls splashing and having a good time, and she goes, okay, maybe tomorrow and try one of the smaller boats. So the next day she tried one of the smaller boats was like, okay, this is fine, this is safe. Saw the other, you know, we had a safe ripple, rapid, rapid that the girls were swimming the rapid. And that was a, you know, cool aspect that they got to be in the moving water. Yeah. And she's like, you know what? I kind of want to try it and go, okay. Yeah, this is a safe space. This is it. Absolutely. You have your PhD on, this is our white water swim position. You can absolutely swim this rapid if you want to. You know, we'll be right here, ready to pull you back in the boat. She goes, okay, she swam the wrap in and she goes, okay, that was really fun. I go, yeah, yeah, I was, the next day on our big rapid day, she's like, okay, I want to be in the paddle raft. And so she got on the paddle raft and was having a great time. So you kind of got to see her bloom and explode on the river and fall in love with it. And she came back this last summer and was absolutely no clue that she had previously been scared of water. She was like, I got this, I know what's up. I know what's happening. I know how camp life works. I know how river life works. I'm here for it, for it. And she's like, now she's going to be graduating high school this year. And she's like, I want to go be a river guide. So we fully came full circle from I Am Scared of Water to all right, future River guide. Here we go. That's incredible. Yeah, yeah. Just the increase in confidence and being able to have that exposure and that acceptance in the community around her that was ready and excited to support her. Okay. Is it wrong that I would like to go back in time and like get to have this experience? You know, we hear that a lot. You'd have to come with me because we didn't have it back then. So we'd have to like, create it. And you know, I don't know that 1980s. But now and we're trying, you know, right now where, you know, Wild Hearts is designed for teen girls. But we do want to be expanding, you know, this year and beyond and to being able to have outdoor opportunities for adult women as well. Yeah I could see benefit there. Oh ton I know those same that same need to have those community you know community of women in the outdoors. Confidence building in the outdoors. Oh yeah. That doesn't stop at 18. No no it does not. So you're looking forward to the future here as you're projecting and kind of thinking about what's ahead for next ten years. Yeah. Yeah. So what what do you kind of think know there's some things on the horizon that you're not thinking as an organization. Yeah. I mean we do like very, very clearly like we're continuing our youth program. Absolutely. We want to be able to make sure that we're hitting every single school in the Treasure Valley. And we want to start expanding and having offering opportunities outside of the Treasure Valley. We want to go on bigger and more intense adventures. We want to be doing more in deeper backcountry adventures, more backpacking trips. We're also looking to expand and see what the community would look like for a wild hearts for adult women and wild retreats. I will be watching you. Please do. I'm going to take a quick moment to thank our sponsor. This episode of Nobody Knows is brought to you by Zamzows, your local source for garden, pet and planet friendly products at Zamzows, we believe that strong communities grow when people feel supported, confident and connected, whether that's in a garden, a backyard or out on the trail. Visit Zamzows.com. Or stop by one of our 12 Treasure Valley locations. Nobody knows like Zamzows. So now it's time to switch gears to what we call is what we call is what we call sharing is caring for others. So this is in anywhere. So this is kind of rapid fire if you will. So are you ready. Yeah okay. So how about a local outdoor spot that you love sharing with girls for the first time? Ooh I mean I don't want to talk rivers again because we've been talking rivers a lot, but always the rivers. But we also, we take girls up. Backpacking in Boulder Lake is an easy first, backpacking trip. And that was my first backpacking trip that I ever was. I love sharing that one. That's really cool. So you you talk with them about the fact that it was mine. And I know in the same like, you know, both the Boulder Lake Trail is just a two mile, you know, trail, but it is uphill for that last mile. And they all suffer and cry. And I remember suffering and crying that first time doing it too. So I got to share that as well. I think there's something interesting as a kid, when you go to a space, an outdoor space, because it doesn't change as much as like, you know, the middle of the city or, you know, something like that, that is, you know, change new buildings around. It's where you can actually say, I was here and it looked very much like this. Yeah, I remember it. I have that, I have a memory on that exact log. Yeah. I think there's something really, it's connecting, I think. Yeah. So all of a sudden now I'm. I might be 20 years younger than you, but. But we've got something common, which is cool. That's a great, great answer. All right, how about a moment recently that reminded you of why this work matters? Oh, I mean, we just came back from overnight, your camping trip. And so even though, you know, we're not necessarily in tents and we're not necessarily roughing it, but seeing these girls learning how to start a wood stove and keep a fire running, and that was their responsibility. We as the adults didn't touch it unless they asked for help. Oh that's awesome. So that was the whole thing with me as a kid. I had like the nuts and bolts of how to do it, but there was always a point was like, just give me that level. Take care of it. Love that. Nope. Keep working at it until you eventually get it started. So yeah, I think it would have been helpful. Somebody would have let me figure it out, give me a little bit more time. Yeah. All right. How about a book, a quote or philosophy that shapes how you lead? Ooh. I mean, I love me some Edward Abbey for some outdoor love. You know, I recently read Braiding Sweetgrass, and I'm loving to, you know, incorporate some of those lessons into our program that book comes up quite often time I, I finally did read it and it is powerful. Yeah, it's quite a read, quite a read. But also the reconnection of like how humans are supposed to be a part of nature. Yeah, we are a part of the natural cycle. Yeah, it's a great read. Highly recommend it. This is the eighth time you've heard this listener. It's time to get the book. All right. Final one. Something outside of work that helps you recharge. Oh, man. I mean, the outdoor spending my own personal time and recreating myself in the outdoors and going on my own adventures, of course. But, in addition to that, having having my own personal community, having my own friend group that is willing to just drop anything and walk a dog with me or, you know, watch TV show, friends of the best. Oh, yeah. And as I'm aging, I'm just realizing that, like, you can't you can't make old friends. Now, I got to build your community and community. Exactly. And. But it takes work. And then, you know, everybody's having kids and everybody's, you know, so you. But you still make time for them, and then they they're still there for you. It's it's the greatest. Okay, we're now to the final question. This is the question we asked everybody. Okay. And, we don't have any rules. No. So. Okay, if you have questions, ask yourself and answer it yourself because there are no rules. Okay. Here is the question. What is something that nobody knows? Ooh I try to hide this I like I already I know, you know and so like oh please don't think terribly of me but I have in in the city I have a terrible sense of direction. I, you know, can manage, navigate outside map read a compass, read. I can do all that. But, when I'm in the city, I have to have Google Maps on or I will apps. I've grown up in Boise and I still cannot get my way across town without Google Maps. That is a wonderfully authentic answer. Oh man, I appreciate it more than you can imagine. I feel that I'm terrible sense of direction. I feel like I've got I've got Boise pretty well. But if you drop me in New York, forget about it. So I feel you. I definitely feel you. I, I just love it when people like you are so just. You're just so authentic and real. And that that answer just was, like, the perfect ending to this podcast. And I have appreciated our time so much. I kind of thought I was going to like you, and I was right. You are a wonderful human. You're doing great things in this community. I love it that you're starting with women when they're younger and and helping them gain confidence in such a wonderful way, and you just have this wonderful air about you, too. I just so anyway, thank you. Thank you for being you. Thank you for being here today and sharing you with us. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. All right. So one last thing. Will you please let our listeners know how they would learn about Wild Hearts if they were interested? Yeah. I mean, we would love, love people to find out and discover us. Love for kids to come and sign up for any of our upcoming adventures. Should be having summer adventures on the website soon for sign ups. Awesome. So the website as well. Yeah. Wild Hearts idaho.org. Awesome. I love the name. I do too. The kids came up with it. Oh, really? So good. Good. Just keeps going with this one. If you enjoyed today's episode, please follow the podcast and leave a review. Next week we'll hear from another incredible voice shaping the treasure Valley. Until then, thanks for listening.