Welcome to the Nobody Knowz podcast with Callie Zamzow. Join us for conversations with local change makers and hear the stories that don't always get told. It'll be honest, messy and beautiful. Touching and humorous. Slow down for a glass and pull up a chair. This is the nobody knows podcast. Welcome to Nobody Knowz. I'm your host, Callie Zamzow, and here we are in the middle of December and things are, just rolling. High speed, straight ahead. So I thought I would, Well, first of all, thank our sponsor, Zamzows. We really appreciate their support in this podcast. And I have a tip of the day from Zamzows. This is the time of year where we're buying a lot of gifts for a lot of people. But we want to remind you of your pets. They are part of our family as well, and they're actually gifts that we have that you can get your pets. That will also be a gift for you as well, especially if you have people in your house, maybe some house guests, that are coming into town and your dog or cat get a little crazy with with people coming into the house. And so we have these wonderful toys that have, you can actually make your own or you can buy pre-made, but they're these little, like, frozen balls that you put inside the toys. And then, dogs will just spend the day trying to get at that treat that's in the middle slowly as it's melting, and they get to kind of enjoy it, but it keeps them busy. And there actually are some, versions of that, that having all natural calming agent in them. So you can do a double whammy in helping your, your pets calm down. Both by having them be busy and by giving them a little natural substance that will help them calm down. And then you and your guests will have a maybe a little bit better time. All jammed up in your house together. Christmas. So you can check that out at any of the Zamzows stores. Okay. So today just there's just so many things to be thinking about. And as I was prepping for this particular podcast, I, I don't talk about it a lot, but I am a BSU alumni, and, I graduated with a biology degree. And what I wanted to do was become a veterinarian. And so there's a whole process to that. If you've ever wanted to go on to grad school and it's it can be very messy if you don't just get in on the first try. I did not get in on the first try, and nor did I the second or the third. In the meantime, while I was not getting into graduate school, Boise State and a couple of very important professors where were willing to kind of I I'm not going to say coddle because that sounds bad, but they helped me in my trying to figure out what I wanted to be when I grow up, especially if this whole vet thing wasn't going to work out. Spoiler alert it didn't work out. But they supported me and they gave me graduate work to do, and they encouraged me to learn different areas and go into different, you know, microbiology or something. I didn't know that I was even interested in. And now, like, that's the thing I love to nerd out on. And anyway, it was just such a wonderful experience. And it was during that time that I think I fully grasped how wonderful a university community can be, beyond just at the education part, just the human being part. And, so I thought I would reflect on that a little bit with you because we have a really cool guest in our studio today, and I'm very grateful that he's here. So please welcome into the studio, Jeremiah Shinn. He is the interim president of Boise State University. Welcome to the studio. So glad to be here. Thanks for having me. I'm so glad that you're here. I have been I'm admittedly a little nervous about this, because I just feel like everything that you're doing right now is just. You're doing a lot of things right now, and, sometimes it's a little intimidating. I focus on just putting one foot in front of the other. I mean, first of all, for Boise State, I have an endless supply of energy for Boise State University. I love the university. I believe in the university. And so that's that's what fuels me. It's a difficult time in higher education, both in the state and nationally. I mean, we've we've got some headwinds that we've we've really not experienced in, you know, well over a generation. And so, it's a challenging time, but, I believe in it. I believe in what's possible. I believe in and in what, we will accomplish in the future. And I'm ever the optimist. And so I wake up every, every day excited about what I get to do. And, again, just putting that one foot in front of the other. And I know that that Boise State University has everything that it needs the to to serve the state of Idaho, to serve our students, and to really make good on the investment that the people of Idaho have put into us. Hi. That's well said. Can you tell us just this is your local boy? Yes. I'm not. Oh. You're not? No. I mean, Idaho is my home now, but I'm not from Idaho. Okay. I thought you kind of started here and then left and then came back. That's true too. Okay, well, tell us that. Tell us about that then. So, just my Boise State story. I came here originally in 2010 from Indiana University, as a director of a department. And really, my, my job at that point was, you know, in 2010, Boise State was really transitioning from what it had been to what it was going to become. And at the time, President Castro was really interested in building a traditional student experience and having student life on campus. And my first job was really to do that, to build a robust campus experience for the kind of campus that we were becoming. So I served, as a, as a director and in a couple of roles for almost ten years at Boise State. In 2019, I had an opportunity to go and be a vice president at, at another university. LSU and I went, did that for four years, and I never stopped missing Boise. I love Boise State. And I again, I just was always interested in what was happening here. So when the opportunity, when there was an opportunity for me to come back as a vice president at Boise State, I took it and, served in that role for a couple years. And then when, when, Doctor Tromp left to go to the University of Vermont, I was able to step in as interim president. And so this is my place. Couldn't, couldn't be happier about how how everything's worked out. And I'm so thankful for that journey, to, to establish roots here, but then go and, and, exercise the leadership skills that I had learned here in another place, where they were valuable. And then I learned a lot there that I was able to bring back here. So so that's my Boise State story. So you you became the interim president. How did that happen? Like, did you just throw your hat in the ring, or did people just come to you and say, we think you should do this? Yeah, I, I honestly, I, I wouldn't it was not on my bingo card. I did not I did not expect to be invited to do this, but but I was I was happy to I was, you know, the, the, members of the state board said we during this transition, we, we need we need you to step in and we, you know, you've you've got the confidence of us and your colleagues and would you be willing and of course, I was. And so it wasn't any more exciting than that. I, I, I did and, as of May 12th, ascended into this position and we've been going strong ever since, and, and I've approached it as, you know, the, you know, the best piece of advice that I received initially was from a president that I'd worked for at at LSU. He said, just remember, interim is the time. The job's the job. So, do the job, don't do the time, do the job. And and that has that has served me well because we have a tremendous amount of momentum as as a university. I mean, we are just on a rocket ship and there's not time to stand still. There's not time to wait. There's not time to just see what happens. We have to keep going and so I think that has actually that's actually been a gift to think about it that way. I'm making the decisions and doing the things that I would do anyway. And so, so that's, that's, that's kind of how I've approached it. That makes a lot of sense. I have a friend who works at Boise State and knows you, and I asked her about you just kind of preemptively and, and I said, so, you know, this whole this job, this thing. And she said, he he is the type of person who is going to do the job that is given to him, and he is going to do it while he's there. And then I said, well, then what happens? Like when when they find somebody in the, you know. And she said, then he will go back into his other position and he will go back to doing that job as well as he always did. And so that this, all that what you just said makes sense to me of what now what she said. Yeah. You're just very, present moment. You're you're going to stay in where you are right now and do the best you can, and then on to the next. Right. I mean, now is what matters. But I'm also mindful of, you know, as a, as a leader, just in general. I try to make decisions. I try to imagine who's going to be in this chair in ten years. I don't want to give them. I want to give them something to work with. Yeah. Right. So and I think about I've always thought about that, I've always been more of a, you know we've got to make decisions in the short term. But we can't make decisions that compromise us in the long term. And so you know that's there's some constraints in that. I mean there's there are probably opportunities that that you don't seize when you have that mindset. But over time, I think that lands you in a far better place. Because not easy to do though. No, no, these these organizations, I mean, this this one's been going since 1932. It's going to be going long after I'm gone. I mean, there's but I, I'm responsible for this part of its arc. Yeah. And I want to be sure that this part of its arc sets it up for, for the next part of its arc. You're a good leader. I appreciate it, I try I've got a lot to learn. Can I go backwards? Just add back to. You said that you were, I think you said ahead of campus life. Was that. Yeah. Basically. Okay. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? And I this may be totally just a personal question because my kid's in college right now and I'm curious about it. What are some of the things that you would dig into and work on when you were doing that? Yeah, well it starts. Let me just start from philosophically, students, college students spend 153 hours every week outside the classroom. So we talk a lot about the 15 hours they spend inside the classroom. They spend most of their time outside the classroom, by far. Yeah. And so we believe that the time they spend outside the classroom matters to the time that they spend inside the classroom. So for our students that live on campus, they're sleeping. They're they're eating. They're they're socializing. They're when they get sick, they go to our health center. When they get in trouble, they go to our conduct office, I mean, and so on and so forth. There are fraternities and sororities. There are student organizations. There are clubs, sports. There are all sorts of things that we're mindful of, both in terms of how students live and how they find other people to connect with, because building community is really important. So we, we we thought about it from that perspective. How do we make sure that these 153 hours set students up for success during those 15? Because those 15 are the most important, but these 153 matter. And so, you know, we focused on what can we do to make things easier for students. We don't want them to have to navigate, difficulty that they shouldn't have to navigate outside the classroom. We want them to stay focused inside the classroom. How do we make campus smaller for them? You know, some of our students are coming to Boise, from big cities, and this is coming to the country. Others of our students are coming from the country. This is a big city for those students. We want them to find a small community that they can connect with, because connecting and feeling like you are a part of something actually has an impact on your academics. It has an impact on all sorts of things mental health, etc.. So, you know, so, so community building, we want to be sure that everywhere they go on campus, they're surrounded with opportunities to learn. So it's not just the learning that happens inside the classroom that employers tell us they're looking for. They're looking for the things outside the classroom. Employers are looking for folks who can solve problems. They're looking for, for for folks that can work on teams, for folks who can take initiative. Some of those are taught inside the classroom, but those are things that are taught outside the classroom. It could be resolving a roommate conflict where you learn that that never happens, it never happens. But if it did, you ready? So so we just think about it holistically in terms of how do we do everything we can so that everywhere a student turns, they're learning, they're growing, they're developing, and they're set up for success inside the classroom so that when they leave Boise State University, they're prepared to lead, they're prepared to live. They're prepared to have jobs, raise families, what have you. And so so that's that's sort of the approach that we took with campus life. And and we did that in a number of different ways. I mean, one of the ways, you know, I mentioned fraternities and sororities. When I arrived here, there were 93 people involved total. And now, I mean, it's I mean, there are thousands, you know, well over 2000, almost 3000 students. And those students, that's one way that they're finding community together. You know, our club sports, there are more club sports. There are far more student organizations. There are all these little ways that students are building community together. What's your college experience like? So I, I went to my undergraduate, I went to Arkansas Tech University. So back to where I'm from. I'm from Russellville, Arkansas. I was born, raised, went to high school and college in the same town, graduated high school and college in the same building. Wow. So, I did hear the accent, by the way. Yeah, there's there's a little bit left and a little bit. Yeah, there's a little bit left. Not always, but, you know, I, I for for me, college wasn't a foregone conclusion. No one in my family had ever had ever earned a four year degree. And, and so it wasn't. And even in my community, the, the, the people I graduate high school with, relatively few of them ended up going to college or certainly finishing college. So this was not even it wasn't necessarily something that I was always going to do. And it and it honestly kind of got on my radar just thinking about it in terms of, oh, I might want to play football in college now, you know, I wasn't good enough to play at Boise State, but maybe at a Division three school or something. But that's what got me started thinking about it. And I was also good at school. So so that turned out to be what I did. But when I went to college, I didn't have anything. I, I knew nothing about how it worked. And several times I thought, you know, this isn't for me. I think I need to I need to step out. And thankfully, I was surrounded by a community that could help me get through it. And I got through. It thrived. Eventually got very involved on campus. I was, joined a fraternity myself was president of that council, was, student body president, was, you know, did did a number of things, played intramural sports. And, and so I actually ended up having a tremendously amazing college experience. And, part of why I care so much about the work that I do is I was that first generation college student. I was that student that went to college on a Pell Grant, and I had a work study job, and I was trying to figure out how to pay for it. And, you know, it wasn't easy. And, and I know that a lot of Idahoans have that same story. And, you know, I'd like to think that I made good on the investment in me. And I know that kids in Idaho are going to make good on our investment in them. So anyway, my own my own experience in college is is part of what drives me and fuels me and, shapes how I think about what I do today. Yeah, I can tell just by the way that you were talking about the student life and how you that you must have pulled some things that you learned from that into, into what you're doing now or what you did then, I guess when you had that particular role. Oh, absolutely. I you know, I was actually I had, yesterday I was having coffee with a member of our volleyball team who had I'd spoken in one of her classes and she's like, could we have, you know, could we have coffee? And of course, and so she was. Anyway, I won't tell her story, but the thing that I said to her is one of the best pieces of learning that I ever had is I wanted to be president of a student organization. And, I wasn't elected. I was the most qualified. I still believe I was the most qualified. But when I asked my friends, why? Why didn't you elect me? They said, because you don't listen to people who, you don't you don't listen. We know you're usually. I mean, they acknowledge that you often are right about things, but you don't. You don't. You just go right past our perspective and get to yours. And that's stuck with me. I mean, when I, I mean, it just hit me like a ton of bricks. You don't listen to us. We just need you to listen. We're okay if you make the decision. You just got to listen to us. And that that is something that has really stuck with me. I really, really try to listen. I don't try to listen, I do listen, yeah. And because what other people have to say is, is valuable. I don't have all the information. I'm not always right. How do you make that transition? How do you. Because that is, first of all, what a gift. Probably didn't feel like it at the time. No, I probably feel like a little jolting. When people do these too, it's like, all right, great. Thank you for that. And then after the shock wears off and I think a lot of people are like, well, they don't know what they're talking about there and whatever, but but somebody like you who stops for a moment says, wow, this is a gift. So how did you go from being somebody who didn't listen to somebody who now that's your primary thing that you do? Was that transition like, and how long did it take? Well, it's probably still taking I feel that. Listen, we all like being right. I have I sort of arrived at my goal is not to be right now. I just want to be right at the end. And so the more I listen and the more information that I have and the more perspective that I can draw into my own, decision making process, the more likely I am to land in a place that, well, for lack of a better word, is right. As if, you know, I'm just using that loosely because that assumes there is a right place to land on, on, on everything. But there's a bit of a suspension of ego, I realize, and I really firmly believe that I'm at my best when I'm getting perspectives from other people, especially when they're different than the one that I have. Because I want to know why. Why do you think that what has led you to that place and and I'm also not afraid to change my perspective. If if I learned something new that disproves what I, what I first thought to be true, I'm willing to abandon that. I don't I don't hold on to things just because that's the thought that I had. So when did it happen? I don't know, it just through through my process of figuring out that I wanted to be a leader, that I wanted to be a contributor to the organizations that I was working in. I've really reflected a lot on how how do I do that? How do I how do I do right by that? Because it's a tremendous amount of responsibility. And I take it really seriously. And so, I don't know, it's a, it's, it's a, it's a growth process. And for whatever reason, that thing that happened when I was a junior in college has really stuck with me. And I don't think about it every day, but it has shaped how I think today. Yeah, I do think that's extraordinary, because I think a lot of times when we're people who don't listen, it's hard to make that change, and it's really easy to just push off on everybody else that you just you just don't know. And it's your problem, not mine. I so I think that's a very and it's yeah. That that just gives me pause. It makes me think of the things that I may be ignoring in my own life. What I'm so I mean, it's, it's funny because when I was I mean, just rewind to when I was 30, when I knew a lot more when I was 30 than I know now. Ain't that the truth, right? I mean, I mean, when I was 30, I was really on it. I, I'm really super smart. And now I'm just I'm painfully aware of all this stuff, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. The more I know, the more I know that I have no idea. And so I think that's, there's, there's a little I mean, if you, if you're willing to accept that and you're, if you're willing that to sort of wash over you, it humbles you a bit. Yeah. I think the pinnacle of knowing everything might be 18. Oh for sure. Yeah. Mine just extended longer than some others. I didn't get the memo till later. Right. So you talked about just a few minutes ago, having coffee with a volleyball player as a student, So I started off at Santa Clara University and then I. I transferred to Boise State. I don't remember, Santa Clara. No offense to Santa Clara. The president ever might have coffee with me for any reason, and I didn't see him having coffee with people. That's that's the state that's unique. Yeah, I mean, maybe. So that's how I know how to do it. You know, a lot of times people in this role come up through a different path. I mean, they're often faculty members and deans and then provosts and then presidents. That has been the typical path. My path is different. You know, I was never I'm not a tenured faculty member. I'm I'm administrator, I have a PhD. So I have done academic things. I've taught, I've done research. So I've done some of that. But my career has been up through student affairs, student development. And so the work that I've done has been student facing often. And so, I don't know that I get any extra points for it. It's just what I think. It's just what I know to do. Oh, you get extra points. I mean, it's it's I think it's really cool. I think it's, I think it's important. I mean, I think it's important, and, you know, and I don't want it to make it make it sound like I do that every day. I don't, but but certainly when, when asked to. I love to, and it's helpful for me to know what's going on with students because I'm, you know, I, I'm at the helm of an organization that that is charged with the education and development of, of young people. I need to know what what young people are thinking, what they're going through, what's on their mind, what are they struggling with. And so the more I know and the more I actually get to interact with them as people, not as abstract concepts, the better I am at at leading the organization. Well said. So you tell us a little bit about the beginning part of your education. Will you tell us a little bit more about, like the post, like your graduate work? And yeah, so I was a biology major. Yeah, I was pre-med, so. Okay. And I followed a physician around to see what they actually did, and I didn't like it. I, I probably should have done that. It probably would have also caused me to not want to be a vet. Well, and I didn't. I mean, first of all, I can't I can't deal with blood and anything. Now I feel like I could then, but I just I can't now. So. But for me, I realized that what that job was is not how my brain worked, because it's sort of you diagnose if this, then here's the thing you do because of that, and my brain is better at solving problems that don't have a solution, you have to figure a solution out, if that makes sense. Oh, you've just solved something in my own brain. I think that's why I didn't enjoy what I was doing either. Yeah, I just suffer. I, I just found out. Yeah, I mean, it just if this then that was not exciting to me. Yeah. It's not how, how my brain works. And I figured out that that's just that's sort of what it was. And I'm so glad. Really smart people far smarter than me do that. But but I was I had a bit of a, of a crisis because if I'm not going to do that, then what am I going to do? And again, I mentioned that I had been student body president. And so I went to I think it was the dean of students. And so I don't know what I want to do with my life because I'm not doing that. Maybe I'll be a football coach and a and teach biology. He said, well, why don't you do what I do? Well, how do you do that? And so through that exploration, I learned that you could go study higher education. And, I went to the University of Michigan, because at the time, I thought that because I'd gone to college in my own hometown, just defaulted to that place, I didn't think that anybody would give me a shot outside of Arkansas. Oh, well, you went to Arkansas Tech? Hell, I mean, how prepared could you be? And so at that time, I was like, well, what's the best program in the country that I can go to? It was the University of Michigan. So I went to the University of Michigan. You know, turns out my assumptions were incorrect. You can get anywhere from anywhere. Yeah. I mean, whatever you want to do, you can get there from there. And that's what I tell students, or especially high school students. Don't overthink this. Like, you can go to undergrad anywhere you want and you can do anything in the world. So, but I went to Michigan. Going from Arkansas to Ann Arbor was was an absolute shock to the system. I mean, it was very, very different. I remember I ordered tea and they brought me a little cup full of green tea. And so I know it's supposed to be with ice in a mason jar and a little sugar. Right. So that was just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what was different. But it turned out to be a really good experience because it was so different and so so I did. University of Michigan had a great ended up having a great experience, although I struggled mightily, with the transition. And then my first job was just right down the road at Eastern Michigan, where I started taking doctoral classes just because it was a benefit and it was free to do so. I took those at some point. I was done with all the classes and thought, well, I should probably I should probably finish this thing, which I did much later. But, you know, I, I think my doctorate from the beginning to the end took like nine years because there were five years where I didn't do anything because I was just burned out. Yeah. So yeah, I and I worked the whole time. So. Yeah, I, I'm so proud of, of my, my graduate education because I think a lot of who I am was shaped not only by the good things but by the struggle that I had, especially initially. And then, you know, even at Eastern Michigan University, you know, it's not it's not one of the top flight programs, but there's not another program I would have chosen because I learned more there than I could have anywhere, because they were invested in me. They were invested in what I needed. They were invested in the research I wanted to do, and it was just such a supportive environment, such a supportive environment. And I think about what I learned there every day. And it's I mean, there's I wouldn't change a thing, you know, it's I you're talking I'm thinking about the so my daughter I mean she's at college now but this time last year she was trying to figure out which college she was going to go to. And it was all the stress and the applications and all that. And I kept finding myself just being the calm. To say where you go is where you're going to go. In hindsight, you'll look back and say, that was where I was supposed to be. It's kind of interesting how the world works that way. And, yeah, I just I think it's interesting that whole the whole process and how stressful it is for kids in their senior year trying to figure out that and what are their next steps. And this is such a growth ful period in their lives, no matter what they do. Truly, no matter what they do this period of time, they're going to grow probably more than than any part of their life, at least as far as like becoming who they're becoming. And then there's another growth spurt after that. Once they sort of think they want to be what they're going to be, and then it's not that, and then it's something else, right? At least that's how my life was. Yeah, there's just so much more pressure than there was when I was going to college. Yeah. I don't I don't have to compare myself against everyone's best curated version of themselves on Instagram. Right? I didn't have to do that. I wasn't on text chains where I got FOMO because I wasn't able to go. You know what? I had to go listen to an answering machine at the end of the day. So anyway, I think that they have it much harder, than certainly I did when I was in college. I mean, there was still a bit of of innocence and just a bit of focusing on yourself. Yeah. And and so I get that kids these days, they certainly have it more difficult than I did in so many ways. Yeah. Just just the fact that there are video cameras everywhere, poor, poor college kids these days. But I'm really grateful there weren't any back when I was in college. But high school students, if you're listening, go where you want to go to school. Yeah, go where you want to go. I mean, you can get wherever you want to go. You can get anywhere from there. Yeah, absolutely. Can I agree I agree I, I went to college primarily. I chose my location because of the weather and I mean, like and then it was the right choice at that time. And then, you know, it kind of led me to the next thing and the next thing. And so, yeah, I just feel like there is a point where you can kind of let go of it and say, okay, you know, I, I'm going to take a step forward. I'm going to move forward. I mean, that's the key, right? You don't want to graduate and and not do anything. You got to figure what out. You know, what's the next step going to be. But I don't think there can be too big of missteps as long as you're moving forward. The biggest misstep is racking up massive debt and leaving without a degree. Yeah. Well, that's you know, that's true. That is the thing that that gets people off off track. And so you don't you don't have to have a tremendous amount of debt to, to have a great education. Absolutely. So many good options without that. Right. Great. I mean there's so there's there's a path forward. Can talk about that all day. Yeah. When I yeah I agree with that. And and so much of what like you said earlier, so much of what you learn in college is taking place outside of the classroom. Anyway. Had such a great time in life too, though I like I was talking to a friend from college yesterday and we're still friends and, and she's she has her kids are a little bit younger. And I said there's something interesting about having a kid in college because I feel like I'm back in that era and thinking about what was happening. It's such a pivotal time in life that it's kind of fun to think about that and sort of be there. And, you know, my kid calls and tells me things that are going on. I'm like, oh, I remember that. And sometimes she'll be like, yeah, mom, it's not pleasant. Oh yeah, yeah, you're right, it's not pleasant. But I do remember that when that was a problem. And now I would give anything to have that problem as opposed to this other problem, you know. So it it's a it's a very cool time of life and fun for you to be at the helm of something. There's just there's a lot of that around you. Oh, yeah. There's so much energy. I mean, it's magical. I mean, I've, I've every day of my professional life I've spent working on a college campus, and there's so much energy, so much possibility, so much excitement. I mean, it I mean, it really is a special place, and it really is a special time to just see people. And and I think about even, you know, even students that I knew at Boise State in 2012 and what they're doing now. And it's just amazing. It's amazing to see what they're doing. I mean, it's just I'm so proud of them. I'm so proud of what they're accomplishing. Boise and Boise State are lucky to have you, so I'm so grateful for you. So can we now talk about the fact that you aren't just this amazing interim leader and, you know, part of our community, you you give back a lot to the community. You do a lot of things outside of Boise State. Can you talk a little bit about that? Sure. Yeah. So, so tell us, tell us, you know, can you kind of give a like because I think you said, do you sit on boards? You sit on boards. Yeah. So you talk about that a little bit. Well, I think that it goes back to your question about meeting with the student for coffee. It's just what I it's what I know to do. And I think I my, my grandfather actually instilled that my, you know, he worked for the Arkansas State Highway Department and, you know, worked hard for his his whole life. And then he retired. And instead of, you know, going fishing, I mean, he he decided now I'm going to contribute. And he, you know, he he ran for elected office because he wanted to serve. He became I don't know what what the equivalent is here in Ada County. But he was on the council that ran the, the county, so it was a he was a justice of the peace and in, in Arkansas. So he did that. He was the president of the state, retirees insurance, you know, retirement plan association. He was you know, he basically was the, the treasurer and the the groundskeeper and all of that for his local church. And his in the cemetery. And, I mean, he was and he did he did all I mean, he did 10 or 12 things. He was just doing things. And he told me, you just contribute something. Don't don't, don't take. You got to give. You got it. You just got to be contributing something to your community. Just always be that person. And so that's something that he always really expected. And that's that's something that I've tried to carry with me. So whether it's in professional settings or other settings, I just I raise my hand, you know, if something needs to be done, I want to I want to raise my hand, I want to contribute. I want to I want to lead. And and so so I've been on many boards. A lot of the boards have, have been, you know, professional associations or, or nonprofits. But, you know, I, I raise my hand and it's, it's a lot of time and it and it takes time away from other things that, that you could be doing. But I, I really think about my grandpa, you know, I think about what he did and what he expected of me and the example that he set and the example I want to set. And so I think service is really important. Yeah. Is it fun sometimes. I ask that because I think, I think sometimes people listen to the, to the show and they hear about people who are volunteering and they think, it is such a drag and you just have to do and you do it because you have to because maybe people are watching or whatever. And I don't know if they have that voice either that I just me. Maybe you have a different voice in that. Anyway, my point is, there there is enjoyment that comes from it. It's absolutely. Yeah. How about this? Even when it's not fun, it's meaningful. Yeah. Right. So sometimes and and it's often fun. And when it's not, it's still meaningful. It's still necessary. Yeah. And so that's, that's kind of how I, how I look at it. It's necessary. It's important. Something that I talk about at work a lot is how do we make things easier for everybody? When I'm just focused on what makes things easy for me, it forces you to have to make things easy for you to account for me, making things easy for me. But if I'm focused on how do I make your life easier? And how do I make the next person's life easier? And they're focused on how they make each other's lives easier, and everybody's focused on how they make my life easier. I think when we when we think about it that way, everybody's life gets easier. So I really do try to think about how do I just make somebody else's life a little easier? How do I contribute? If we all did that, I think we'd all be a lot happier and it'd be a lot more fun. Yeah, that's I mean, that's a heavy lift, but but that's kind of how I think about it. It is. But if you do it, once you do it, you realize that you you are receiving back like it just happens. Yeah, sure. Not on purpose, but but I always find that the times that I'm giving the most is when I realize that I've received quite a bit as well, just in return. And usually it's for me, it's all relationships. So it's always, you know, when I'm doing something, I'm like, oh my gosh, I got to meet that person, or I got to make that connection. And, so I, I guess I always do some trying to encourage, especially young people who are trying to figure out the next steps and how to how to get involved and whether they want to. I mean, is it going to be even be fun and, you know, that sort of thing. And, so I like what you have to say about that. There's a different mindset related to what I've been talking about. There was a different mindset for Gen X, we'll say than, than than there is here. And, I, I'm actually really confident. I'm actually confident in this cohort of young people. I think that I think they've got something that could really help us out as a society. And so I think that sometimes they don't always know how to exercise it. But but I do think they have something. And so I appreciate you encouraging them along. And and I appreciate what you just said because I, I agree, I think that having, you know, every generation has their that got a kick around the other generations and ours is the best and yada yada yada. And, and it's always seems like historically the rising generation is always the one that we're shaking her head. It doesn't matter. I mean, you know, Gen X, I they were shaking our heads and I was like, I get it. But I do find that this rising generation has they think differently and they take things on differently. And I, I have hope in them as well. And listen, I'm, I'm a curmudgeonly Gen Xer like anybody else, like, I, I mean, I, I'm frustrated and then, you know, in moments of clarity, I'm like, you know what? They're better at this. They're they're really better at this. Yes. They've got this other thing that we've got to work on, but they're the raw materials are there to do something great. Yeah. They're worth investing in. The thing that I have to try to wrap my brain around and my kid is one of them, is just how electronics have have played a role and and how much it affects their happiness. And you know, all that. You mentioned it earlier. Just the comparison and all of that completely changes things, I would imagine, on a college campus, because when we went to college again, I mentioned the video cameras. But the truth of the matter is, we also didn't have devices that we were on 24 seven and all that. Our college experience was very social. It was all about the people and the, you know, all the things of the next party you were going to or whatever. Not that that was me, mom. I did not go to any parties anyway. But like, how has that changed the college experience as far as especially when you were talking about creating an experience outside of the classroom? Because obviously in the classroom, they're not going to have their phones, but outside the classroom is all this extra time where they could just sit on their phones and literally scroll all that extra time and then just go to class again? I don't want to cite this research because I'm not exactly sure where it comes from. But I do know that, and I think Jonathan Haidt has done some of this work, but tremendous. Yeah, but but I think it's 1995 for people born after 1995. Their mental they have a different mental health. Perspective maybe than folks born before 1995. And if you look at when they were going into their teenage years and maturing, that's when we it wasn't the internet, it wasn't phones, but it was combining those two things that I think has really challenged, students that were born after 1995 and certainly on college campuses now. Everybody, you know, in any traditional student is long past that. And so we've had to really think about how we how we grapple with what has become a mental health crisis, not only on college and university campuses, but in our country. And so there's an element of of being sure that we have mental health counselors, but there's also an element of being sure that we're building, again, those 153 hours building the kinds of communities that are conducive to building, to building relationships, to to having positive experience experiences, because, you know, not everyone who struggles necessarily needs to, you know, is is a candidate for, for counseling. We'll just say, but but everyone who struggles needs to find resources and people and communities that can help them grapple with whatever they're grappling with. And and that has just become more acute in the past, I would say, decade in higher education. We have to think about it. We have to factor that in. Yeah. Because we're we're we're concerned about the extent to which, a mental health can, can accelerate one's academic, success or serve as a, serve as a barrier to it. Yeah, yeah, totally different challenges. Sure. It's amazing. Can we talk about Jonathan Haidt just for a second? And actually not necessarily him, but the fact that Boise State brought him to to their campus. And I got to see him speak. And it was one of the coolest things ever. And my husband and I all of a sudden were like, wait, Boise State is like, they're bringing in some really cool space. So now we love that, like the speaker series and whatnot. Can you talk a little bit about that element of the university, because that that goes beyond the students that are attending. It's the community at large. Well, we we take seriously our role as a community anchor. We're a university. And people think about that in terms of classes and athletics. But we're also a community anchor. I mean, more than, you know, we had more than 600,000 visitors to our campus last year for things other than, than than academics. And, you know, part of, you know, that's football and concerts. And, you know, the Morrison Center had 160,000 visitors. And so we we take that seriously because part of what we do is we want to contribute to quality of life for people across the Treasure Valley. So so that's important to us and that's intentional. But, you know, in terms of our speakers, a lot of that is organized, via something called the Institute for Advancing American Values. And what we want to do is we want to bring different perspectives to the table because we believe that higher education is uniquely positioned to bring perspectives from, from, from all across the political and philosophical spectrum so that we can have, you know, civil debate about what what they're saying, and so that we can try on different ideas. We want to be the kind of place that that gathers, that gathers folks. And, and talks about things with, with civility, with respect, and with an eye toward getting to of a more perfect understanding of what, whatever it is that we're trying to solve. So Jonathan Hite, was was part of that. And certainly since, Doctor Hite was there, we've we've had a number of other, speakers from, from across the political and philosophical spectrum that that engage our community and really necessary conversations. Do you have hope for for that? Do you have hope that we'll be getting back? Because it seems like the divisiveness is it mean that it's on everybody's mind, right. Sure. And I and I think all of us I've never talked to somebody was like, nah, let's keep it divided. That's much better. So because we're all wanting it. But there's still it seems to be a challenge there. Do you have hope for that? Do you have hope with enough? I do in this role, I've spent a lot of time in conversation. We'll just say I've spent a lot of time in conversation with legislators from Idaho, you know, from across the from across the political spectrum. And there's not a single person that I've talked to yet, not a single one of them that that I have found to be less than committed, less than, less than kind and ethical. And across the board they have been across the board. We've had phenomenal conversations. And across the board we have found common ground. And so I have hope, you know, I, I don't spend a lot of time talking about, you know, in my day to day life, in, in a university, the conversations that, that we're having are not politically charged. The conversations we're having are pragmatic. The conversations we're having are about how to make our community better, how to help our students be more successful. And so in my world, this thing that happens on Twitter or X or whatever we call, it's just I feel like that's not the real. That's not the place where I live. Yeah, the place where I live is kinda the place where I live is more civil. The place where I live is open to honest disagreements as we're trying to solve problems together. So yeah, I do have hope and I don't I don't think I'm overly optimistic there. I just think most people, most people are reasonable and genuinely want the best, want to be happy, want us to be productive, I believe it. Well, I agree with you. I agree with you and I love the way that you said that. I hope our listeners are listening. All right. We're going to take just a moment to thank our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Zamzows, your local source for garden pet and planet friendly products. Whether it's in our gardens, our homes, or in the ways we choose to lead and show up for our community, growth takes steadiness and patience and care. Visit Zamzows.com or stop by one of our 12 Treasure Valley locations. Nobody knows like ten toes. And I will say that to start the show you talked about gifts for for dogs. Yes, my my dog has been naughty this year. Oh, sure. That he's he's getting a gift. Unless you have doggie stockings of coal. Oh, no. D is this a younger dog? No, no, he acts like it. But he's not young. He's about seven. Oh, so is this something new that's come up? Is. No, no, it's always been this naughty. All right, well, maybe one of these in all natural calming agents. Well, you know, I think you have a gift coming your way. Just hang tight. Hang tight. Thanks. Santa will take care of you, I promise you. All right, so we're going to shift gears. We're going to go into the part of the show that we call sharing is caring. I like to call it rapid fire questions, although they're usually not very rapid fire. And you can answer them however you like. Okay. So here's the first one a book, a scholar or a leader that is shaping how you think about higher education. So last week I was at a conference and I talked to, a university president, and we ended up sitting there for an hour together. And I, I learned more in that hour from his experience. I don't want to say who it is, but I learned more from his experience in an hour than I've learned in any month before that. So I learned a lot from my colleagues. That's awesome. You have me very intrigued. Okay, how about a Boise spot on or off campus that always recharges you? I really enjoy walking down 13th Street. I used to live on 13th Street, loved it. And we don't live near 13th Street 13th Street anymore, but it's just I don't know. For me, that's Boise. It's very uniquely it's uniquely 13th Street. Like there's something kind of cool about it. I agree with that. Yeah I love 13th Street. Yeah, well, that's a great answer. I need to go on 13th Street. I guess I haven't been there in a while. Okay. How about a book, a podcast or a leader who's influencing how you think about leadership right now? I've been listening a lot to how I built this and it's and it's and it really talks about it talks to founders of companies and literally how they built their company. And, you know, I don't work in the corporate world, but there's so much about risk taking and there's so much about failure and parlaying failure into success and leveraging assets. In that podcast. And so I've been listening to that and really enjoy it. And I'm learning a lot about what's possible in higher ed by listening to think to things that have nothing to do with higher ed. That's cool. Yeah, that's really cool. Okay, last question. Something outside of work that keeps you grounded. Maybe family hobbies. So when I took this job, one of the things that I did was I treated myself, and I bought a guitar that I'd wanted since I was 16. I'd always wanted a Gibson Les Paul. And around that time, one came out a special edition and Bronco Blue and and so I bought it and, and I always have music running around in my head and I sometimes hum it into my phone. And so what has been keeping me grounded is thinking through arranging songs that I've just had in my head, and I've done some recording and playing with my new guitar. And so it's been really fun, that, that has that. When I'm doing that, I don't think about anything else that is incredibly cool. So I was just going to ask you the final, final question, which is what is something nobody knows, but I think that's a great answer unless you have a different answer now, that's probably it. I mean, I awesome, you know, and that comes from when I was in college. I played in a band and we used to, you know, play and tour around and it was really loud music. But, I learned a lot about leadership being in that band because I had three other friends that were that I had to manage and, and, you know, the whole recording process and the detail orientation that it takes to have the final product, I mean, I learned so much about leadership. I learned so much about management and about sort of detail by being in a, in a, in a rock band when I was, you know, when, you know, a teenager and early in my early 20s. And so there were several years when I didn't think about it much. But lately I've actually been thinking a lot about the lessons I learned. It's kind of it's been kind of fun to reflect on it, especially I've as I've been playing guitar a little bit more. There's nothing like music that you use a different part of your brain and and it changes you, changes you to play it. It changes you listen to it. It's it's a very important part of my life, I agree. Yeah. Jeremiah, thank you for being here. This has been a wonderful conversation. You're just so down to earth and cool and, I don't know what I expected here today, but but you're you're you're a really great guy. And I hope that we can call each other friends, because I would love to say that I'm friends with you. Do it. You're such a cool guy. You heard it. Here. Friends with Callie. It's. It's official. Everybody. Well, thank you for being on here. And thank you for all of your insights. And, it's just been this has been a great conversation. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Absolutely. Go, Broncos. Go, Broncos. That's right. All right. If you've enjoyed today's conversation, please follow the podcast and leave a review. And take a moment this week to appreciate the educators, mentors and leaders shaping our community. Next week, we'll hear from another incredible voice shaping the Treasure Valley. Until then, thanks for listening.